scourge165

I don't think that people are saying Cael is BETTER than Gable at coaching(certainly not "much better")...at least that's not how I've read it. I've read it that Cael has...evolved beyond where Gable and Iowa was. The sport has...which is to be expected, it's been 20+ years, but Cael in particular given his success. Cael's best teams haven't been better than Gable's but right now...in 2023, the opinion some had shared, myself included, is that Gable's ideology wouldn't work. He couldn't have Iowa guys who were so much more relentless until they broke their opponents, just beat them up and score repeatedly late in big matches. PSU guys don't gas and there were plenty of matches Iowa Wrestlers won vs much better technicians based on their gas tanks alone. How much weight are you really putting on the Banach Gold Medals? They were the best when you took out most of the best Wrestlers from the field. It's not nothing. They made Olympic teams and they were better than who Japan and a few other good Wrestling countries had. They never won world medals and '84 is, in large part, the only success the 9 Gold or Silver medalists in Freestyle from '84 had. So who's losing? Given that Lou kinda tried to outpower guys, I'll take McCoy there. at 197, Bo Nickal wins. 184-Brooks or Ruth could have. 174-I won't pretend to know and I think it's kinda silly to even have him on there. In reality, if we're having the 1948 version of Joe Scarpello on the roster, he's probably not competitive against most College Wrestlers. Nobody really has any idea what he looked like or how he wrestled. We know that after the NCAA didn't wrestle for a few years, he came in shortly after, had a couple of 11-0 or 15-0 seasons and won 3 titles. Is that enough to form any type of...well, informed opinion? 165-Joe Williams-Taylor I have no clue. Williams is the first guy starting heavy and moving down who could have very quickly adjusted all the passing the ankle bullshit. He also Wrestled very close matches vs great Wrestlers. I would lean Taylor, but I'm a huge Wiliams fan. 157-Nolf? If you're just going by NCAA finishes, 2/1/1/1...but I'm not. But I think that needs to be mentioned. Wrestled vs some of the better '57 pounders ever, beat them and especially with I-Mar, he was on pace to be an All-Time great 4X Champ and then along came Nolf. 149-Again, I think this is a extremely tough match to call. I'll just qualify this by saying I thought Mcllravy was one of best ever...but a pretty compelling argument was made as to why he shouldn't be. He needed I think 3 TDs late and a stall call to beat Abas, went to OT with Bono. He won by wearing guys out(he was click with that boot scoot as well). But is he wearing Zain out? 141-I'd go with Ironside...and I'd say he should be ranked higher than Lee. 133-Brands, again, clearly ranks higher than RBY(especially now). But if he wrestled his style vs RBY... 125-This one's beyond obvious. This has been discussed at length, but if you're going by how Ed Banach or Chris Cambell wrestled their style vs how Brooks/Ruth/Nickal wrestled, I don't see how they win. If you're going by where they should rank historically...well, I'm still not sure about them, but it gets a little easier to pick who'd win at 133/141/149. Then it's Iowa guys. 165 you have Taylor, a 2X Hodge winner and if we're going to count Freestyle accomplishments, a WC and an Olympic Champ when there was no Eastern Bloc boycott...which obviously also included Cuba, Iran, Poland...a LOT of the elite Wrestlers. Ultimately, I think it's fun to look at each teams best lineup's or wrestlers, but this is ALMOST always going to favor the most recent Wrestlers in an actual hypothetical matchup.

Uetake seems like a safe bet given he was an Olympic Champ his first year...and then Henson. Ferrari likely has his 3rd(if we're just talking about pure Wrestling ability). Would have been interesting to see how he matched up with Nickal...or just how he progressed. Johnny Thompson, Oliver and Hendricks like you said...Chris Perry probably doesn't make the lineup.

Ironside is a good dude. I've had the pleasure to get to meet him on a few occasions. He's remembered meeting me(first when I was a HS kid) and then came up and have some kind words when I saw him at the NCAAs. Too bad he got screwed so bad here.

LOL...that's not funny to Ironside I'm sure, but that is comically bad. 90% of that match was Wrestled like St. John had a 1 point lead with 15 seconds left and...you could have called about a dozen fleeing the mat calls? One of the great rule changes are the out of bounds rules now in play. In a match like this where the ref doesn't want to make a call(however obvious) you at least can't just hide near the out of bounds line. Also cost us another Ironside vs Kolat match. Didn't those two have a GREAT match that year where Kolat lost in old school Iowa fashion? By the Iowa guy getting 7 TDs in the last 30 seconds when a guy is gassed?

I do actually. Kemp was incredible, but I don't think this version of Kemp could hang with O'Toole's scrambling. I still think Kemp's the better Wrestler...just like I think Babe Ruth is a better baseball player than...Joey Meyer, but if you're asking how 1970s/80s Kemp would do with O'Toole right now, I think O'Toole would really get him.

Yeah, but when you do this, then a AAA hitter is going to be a better pitcher than Cy Young. Babe Ruth in today's game would be maybe a good HS player, perhaps a Juco. The Packers teams of the 60s would get beaten by a good SEC team now. I generally assume we're doing this in a "how dominant were they," and then using their level of greatness vs their era. I've heard National Champs, AAs, Wrestlers from the 80s(even early 90s) talk about how the technique is SO much better today. The BIGGEST Gable and Iowa fanboi kinda chuckled at Gable's wrestling and then said he wouldn't be an AA today. Anecdotal, but what is Gable going to do when they're diving over and trying to pass the ankle and all that? So I guess it's how great were they vs how great are athletes today. Mcllravy for instance, he was incredible. Again, worse a lot of guys out. 16-15 first NC, then an 8-3 win, controlled that one, lost when he couldn't quite come back and then won an OT match. Was he actually better on his feet than Zain as has been suggested? Or did he wear guys down and then start racking up TDs? Zain wasn't exactly a slouch on his feet. These exercises are just kinda pointless if you do it the way you're suggesting. You're top 10 at almost always going to be from the past ~20 years. I'd say only Cael and Abas(arguably) would be on the list of all time greats who'd win right now who wrestled pre-2000...but that statement's gonna go over like a fart in church...on a hot day(particularly among the Iowa crowd).

There's a guy who was born in 1790 who's got Grandchildren alive today... President Tyler. I really don't see it having any bearing on this discussion, but it is WILD to me.

He does talk about PSU...he just talks about how they're really...not that good and they'll probably lose. He's either the most neurotic person in the history of the world or just trolling.

I just don't get how someone can watch the NCAAs and think we need these massive, sweeping changes. 3 point TDs or 0 point escapes, push-outs like the sport needs these sweeping overhauls to problems that don't really exist. These changes would make the sport unrecognizable. I get trying to create more action on the mat, eliminating that stupid ankle hook that's effectively the same as dropping down to the ankle for 5 seconds, work to turn...alright.

Actually had me watching WBB. She's fun to watch. The LSU player that just followed her around at the end of the game was obnoxious, but...good watch. Also...no clue Elton John coached Basketball, but that was fun to see.

What about Ironside at 141? He went 6/3/1/1 IIRC. Won the Hodge in '98. 4X B1G Champ, 4X AA(6/3/1/1). Lost a couple very close matches to St. John in the Semis. These are some amazing lineups...whatever tweaks you may make. There is a very reasonable case to be made to put Ruth in there over Starocci(or Brooks). Same with a couple Hawkeyes.

Angelo has a visit scheduled for Wisconsin this weekend according to rumors on the Iowa board. This wouldn't shock me as he might as well take multiple visits... I suspect we'll see Angelo wrestling at some program in the future, but still have to go through another year or two of AJ putting out posts speculating about some big announcement...with no big announcement(regarding wrestling, though we may find out what state institution he'll be spending ~5-10 years at). I don't know why, but I'm still rooting for Angelo. I don't know any of them, but it seems like he's already being written off and so far as I can tell, he flexed and did a little shit talking, but he's being lumped in with the brothers poor behavior. Just hope he is his own man and doesn't blow a chance at a free education.

I mean...I probably wouldn't call OJ a murderer if it were just the two of us(I'd hate for some random man to come along and stab me and get all that blood all over OJ)...but I will do it here.

I'm with you on the headgear. Of all the Wrestling you'll be doing, a tiny fraction is an actual match. Having your ear swell up to the size of a Golf ball and start to fold over...I don't really get what's cool about that, but that's for HS rules I guess. You're legally allowed to be an idiot when you're 18! Running a guy off has gotten worse. I think "working for the turn," will mostly just be guys like Starocci making it look like they're working for a turn. I'd definitely do something about hooking the ankle. You can't stay on the ankle for 5 seconds, but you can hook it for the whole period? I'll just reiterate my general point. We shouldn't go looking for problems to fix. The MFFs, those are actually problems. If not counting them as a loss on the record, at LEAST count them as a loss for seeding purposes. More action on top. But I think the pushout rule is going to really hurt the sport.

I really doubt they saved money on the UV "Mops." Those things start at like 1,000 dollars. how much do you think mops and bleach come in at?

Iowa won a LOT of matches by just wearing guys down...particularly the Brands brothers, Ironside, Stieners and Mcllravy. He won...what, 16-15 in the finals after going down big to Gerry Abas(who gassed). I don't think PSU guys would have been gassing. Mcllravy isn't wearing Zain out IMO. No question. Again, I was just talking to a 2X Champ from the early 90s about this and he's the first to admit how much better the technique is today...but in what sport is this not true? Iowa bullied, out-worked and just intimidated(in the best possible ways) a lot of guys during Gable's runs in the 80s and 90s. I don't see that happening to the PSU guys listed. This is a fun question, but...how do you even measure it. Joe Williams vs David Taylor? I think Taylor would be too much for him in the scrambles. The point was made he lost matches because he got bullied. He lost to two different Wrestlers. Jenkins...who really didn't bully Taylor, Taylor got beat by his own technique. And then Dake who Taylor had one of the great finals matches against and I wouldn't say he was bullied. I'd just say Dake's the 2nd best College Wrestler since Wrestlers were allowed to Wrestle all 4 years.

The Americans were in the Gold Medal Match in 9 of the 10 weights in Freestyle. We even had a few guys do well in Greco. It was kinda like having the NCAAs without the B1Gs competing. I think there was one athlete who won a WC in '83 and one who won a WC in '85. The Schultz brothers. It was OBVIOUSLY nowhere near the same level of competition. It's still an Olympic Title, but there's a reason most people put an * next to that year.

It seems unlikely Russia is leaving the Ukraine with Putin still in power. Putin would lose even more credibility if Russia tucked tail and ran now(which is how it'd be seen by those supporters of the War). Nothing is fair to the Ukrainians right now. I'm still conflicted over banning all Russian athletes unless they speak out against their own country...leaving them without a home and very possibly subject to severe punishment. Who knows what Russia would do. I also don't want to really die on this hill defending Russian athletes even if I think it's a little more nuanced than their Country is doing some terrible shit. It feels like the sanctions that targets the oligarchs...but without the teeth as you're not actually punishing anyone who can do anything to put pressure on Putin.

The Americans did send over a delegation to try and get the Nazi's to tone down the antisemitic rhetoric...which as history proved, accomplished absolutely nothing but appeasing the few American's who were concerned about the PR....to the point it was even an issue at that time There was very little actual outrage in America at that time. FDR stayed out the issue entirely, and save for the American ambassador who adamantly advocated a boycott and few others, American athletes were encouraged to participate. Though...not all that concerned as Jewish athletes in the US were left off teams in an attempt to not offend Hitler...purportedly. As you pointed out, with the CONCLUSION of the games... The Nazi's temporarily toned down their rhetoric, they took down many antisemitic signs featuring Jewish tropes for the Olympics. How is that similar to Flat Earth? One of the two things is real and happened, the other is...flat earth.

Keep in mind when a few of those Olympic Gold's happened.

I agree...It'd be similar to '84 when we dominated the Olympic games, but I believe only Shultz won a WC the year before or after. That's not why I think the Russian athletes should be in though. It shouldn't be about the product of the Olympics.

Yeah, but we went over there to make sure he wasn't gonna be really mean to the Jews first!

Which one? The first one was pretty good and it didn't seem like the guy was quite the dick the last two were. I enjoyed the guy who tried to run and jump into him getting planted!

This might actually get me if you changed the name a bit. "Siddi Finch?"

Yes, I don't think he'll beat Dake, but I don't think Marsteller is beating Starocci again. Is it really more likely he beats Dake than Marsterller beats him? I don't know, that was more just for emphasis. It's going to be very interesting to see how Starocci does at 74KG. It's a shame the greatest sport in the world only gets 6 Olympic weights.