scourge165

I think he'd end up a pretty big upgrade over Teske long term. Maybe not a huge upgrade for 2023-24, but he had 6 losses(4 to RBY/Fix) and took 5th as a Freshmen.

I got a haircut once and the women giving me the cut put plastic gloves on when she saw my ears and she commented on them. I don't remember the exact conversation, but she asked me if I was a Wrestler and I said, "yup, the ears give it away," and...she goes on to tell me that they're caused by a fungus and some type of skin disease causes them. So I explained to her how you ACTUALLY get cauliflower ear...it's from the cartilage getting kinda broken down and...well-everyone here knows the truth. She comes back and CONTINUES to argue with me saying her Husband Wrestled, and that's why he quit! So I asked how long and she says he wrestled His Freshmen year. I remember making some comment like, "well, your Husband's wrong, I've wrestled for 15 year(or whatever it was at that point) and it's not a skin disease or a fungus. And then just sat there as she was huffy and I was a little annoyed. She also didn't believe me when I said MOST Wrestlers(this was College by this point) had cauliflower. I suspect she confused what her husband had told her...

Ok...well...that's not me, and I suspect it's not most Wrestlers. That sounds like participation trophy type stuff. I can enjoy a practice in which I get my ass kicked, but I've never had fun losing a match. I mean...as I said, I can do so while playing Football. I could have fun in a game we loss. But when it's just me on the Mat, I never had fun losing. At the end of a National Tournament, I could feel a sense of accomplishment without having won, and that could be rewarding.

It'd be good for fundraising, it'd bring a TON of attention to the sport. The problem is, are you recruiting young, male athletes...to Wrestle for a Women? I'm not trying to be sexist, just realistic. They can know more than anyone...but it's asking a lot. I think it's the same with Becky Hamon in the NBA or I can't think of a Female coach in the NFL. Get Dake and Taylor to go be her assistants for 200K a year with some of the money they raised and you might have some success out of the gate, but that's always going to be a problem you'll face as Women try to break into Men's sports as coaches. And if this was on Twitter, people would play dumb and ask why it's fine for Male Coaches to coach women's team like this is an issue you can argue away!

I think it's pretty much the same thing. You're each saying the same. I don't think anyone likes the "suk" they just know it's part of the deal. If you want to be able to win, you've gotta out-work people. I remember going to bed and feeling like I hadn't done enough and I'd wake up at Midnight and get on the treadmill. I guess your "embracing the suck," in that sense, but I did it out of a desire to win(or a fear of losing...I really don't know which).

YES...it absolutely is. That's why we do it. That's why Spencer Lee can talk about how practice is "miserable" and then talk about how much he loves the sport. And I'm with you, I've had these conversations as well. At the end of the day, it's different, it's rewarding rather than fun. It's that euphoria when you accomplish a big goal and each win is rewarding. I could play Football and I had fun even if we lost. It sucked in the end, but running the ball or going out and hitting someone, that was fun. And the practices, the 2-a-days in Football have always been a breeze for any Wrestler I've known. Again, I really hope someone can find a way around all the parts of the sport that are necessary to win. I remember Wrestling Greco and we had to take our Partner and go up and down the room doing reverse lifts. Those were warmups. Those were 2:30 practices in a 90+ room in the summer. You can say I'm being a contrarian or whatever...cool. Tell me how you can get through that and make it "fun" like a baseball practice? You can play baseball, maybe get some extra work in going to the batting cages, but then go to Culvers, eat whatever you want, go home, play video games and wait until your next practice. If that's how you're going about Wrestling...you're probably not setting yourself up for success. It's just a fundamentally different thing. Maybe Cross Country is more similar. You push your body to extremes or marathon runners, I don't know. But I totally agree with your post.

I don't think he was saying he was hated in the sport, but...he was the biggest name in the sport this year. Sure, he and Yianni were going for 4, but the spotlight on him was MUCH brighter. A lot of people loved him and respected the hell out of him, but a lot of people also wanted to see him fail. I got text messages from people just giddy after he lost who were at the D1s this year...and there were quite a few people mocking him. I think you're understating how many people were rooting for him and I think the difference with Spencer was there were very few people who have no interest one way or the other. Just being the biggest storyline going into the Tourney, Iowa's first 4-Timer, going for his 3rd Hodge(which I think he wins easily if he wins it). It's not that MOST people hated him, it's that people are dicks and there were an awful lot of people who wanted to see him lose. It's not like the contingent of fans rooting AGAINST Real Woods, it was much louder and much more visceral. I don't think he was "as beloved as they get," though. Cael was loved by most when he wrestled, Dake was popular(he may have been more on par with Lee if he was an Iowa guy). David Taylor, Gable Stevenson, they all seemed to be pretty "beloved." Lee is kinda in a group of his own. Maybe some old school guys remember a better comparison, but I think, again, comparing him to Yianni, there were far less hardcore fans of Lee and a LOT more people hoping he'd fail...for whatever reason.

I don't necessarily think he couldn't or should have. I don't have a strong opinion on what he should have done...but yeah, I think if he'd have said after just dominating everyone, teching, pinning everyone who actually wrestled him all year and most who just tried to stall their way through, if he says, 'the injury I had when I was doing all of that, that's the reason I couldn't wrestleback' I do think people would have said he was making an excuse. I personally thought I his knee buckle when he was in that front head position, I think that freaked him out a bit...which is why instead of hanging onto the elbow, he went around the body and lost the match...but that'd would have been an excuse, not that it wouldn't have mattered to me. But in his own video, he talks about how he's held to a different standard(true) and he's also the guy that came out and said excuses are for wusses. So I think he thought that'd be an excuse. I really think he was in a no win situation. You're coming at it from a more rational, adult perspective, but listen to this video. When he's streaming, he has people typing, "MAT RAMOS, MAT RAMOS," in all caps, you had people making up stories about him not being there to support his teammates, he even took some shots from his teammates Mom this year. I think as big as the knees...and I'm saying this from a place of ignorance as I don't know how bad his knee(s) were, I don't know Spencer, but I DO think it was more mental. The build up, going for a 4th Title, 3rd Hodge(which I think was his). Having gone through this before in HS...I think he was just devastated and broken. I think he was just in a no win situation and honesty, his explanation was as good of one as I expected. I also get why people want more information. This is on a whole other scale from Marinelli, BUT in the thread talking about how to grow Wrestling, I think more transparency would be good. Especially at the NCAAs. It can be intrusive and obnoxious, but the winners and the losers have to speak to the media in CFB and CBB. We get in-game updates. Here we're just left wondering. So I completely see that side of it. But that's more on the sport itself and I wouldn't hang that on Spencer.

He and his coaches made the decision it was the the best thing for his future. That's as much as it seems like he'll explain it.

Yes...this is exactly what I took away from it. Basically he's not completely healthy, but he hadn't been all year and he wasn't any more injured for that mat-was the inference I got from him. He MFF'ed out because his future was his priority...again, inferring he's not 100%, but doesn't want to use that as a crutch. If he came out and said, "I've been rehabbing two torn ACLs this year and I wasn't in a good place physically," then he'd have gotten trashed even more. So he touched on it while emphasizing that he Ramos deserves the credit for beating him. I don't see the contradictions, just a little context. I'm not sure what people really expected or wanted from this, but he seemed honest and genuine.

Overall, good interview. He didn't dodge, didn't make excuses...pretty much just says he did what was best for his future by not Wrestling back. He got a little defensive...but Christ, he was THE story of the Tournament and so many people WERE kinda shitting on him. I gained a lot of respect when he said he wasn't hurt, Ramos just beat him, cited how he scored earlier this year against him...how they should have focused on Ramos more, his family. Didn't love to see his Mom on TV. Understandable. Came off as likeable as always. The treatment was never fair. And the devastation of the loss had to just be next level. Funny anecdote on Anthony Ferrari at the end. Not the hardest hitting interview, but I think people would have taken away whatever they wanted to whenever he did an interview, be it right away or later. The comment that stuck with me was Quint saying he's never seen a Wrestler as distraught after a loss. I can't imagine how gut wrenching that loss must have been.

That's one thing about our Sport. Once people get interested...the tend to get hooked.

We've actually got some things in common. If I got into trouble, that was my punishment as well. I can only hope my kids will enjoy the sport as much that it'll be a punishment...but who knows if they'll enjoy it at all. I've seen the Sons of some wrestlers go out for the sport and just stay out because they THINK it's expected of them and then, particularly if their Dad was extremely accomplished. I loved Wrestling in the Tournaments, but again, the work that it takes to get there is different in Wrestling than other sports. It's rewarding more than "fun" in my opinion. It's different than getting ready for a game on Friday Night(which I also loved). If someone really does have a way to make ALL that goes into becoming a Wrestler "fun," I'd genuinely love to hear it...because a lot of the guys I started with quit along the way. I know ways to make SOME of the shitty parts more fun, but...I don't see away around it, you've gotta put your body through a lot to Wrestle.

Apparently

Well...I guess you're our savior then! You can solve the issue almost nobody else has been able to. You've learned how to make all parts of Wrestling fun! The Drilling, the running, the weight cutting, the grind, the surgeries that you'll invariably have as you move up the ladder...so you and Lyndon Baines get together, work this shit out and lets watch as Wrestling signs a 111 BILLION dollar TV deal for 10 years like the NFL just did. Shouldn't take much more than 10, maybe 20 years! Get to...I'll be the first one cheering you on.

You THINK I might be...and now you're kidding? Well...you're clearly not as bright as I thought you were! LOL...no, of course, they're geniuses. One of the most difficult things...and it seems SO simple, but one of the most difficult things I had doing in the short time I coached, was getting the best Wrestlers to open up and take shots and attack and Wrestle loose vs their best competition. And it didn't always work. We had one guy in the Quarters one year who was so vastly superior on his feet, but he just had a mental block. It wasn't until he got tilted and had ~1:50 of RT against him that this kid started attacking. He finished up with 2 TDs in the 3rd, a Stalling call and then probably 3-4 more shots that would have been TDs if he wasn't down. Same problem in HS, same problem I know I dealt with. They both managed to get their guys to always attack. That sounds simple and while some guys are Bryce Andronian and they're always attacking, most aren't. The whole Va Tech team doesn't. The WHOLE Iowa and PSU teams under those legends did. And the way Gable got his guys to just out-work everyone, the way Cael gets his guys to relax, they're leaders before anything. And then of course, Gable recruited tough kids who fit his style, Cael has a way of picking kids who fit his, but both of them had to have the success to be able to recruit with so much success.

Huh...I usually get to just skip over these now with the "ignore this users posts," but...this is not...not-true. Not sure it's unique to this Country. Most of the Countries OUTSIDE of the US that have a lot of success in Wrestling are Countries that people grow up very different and live a much tougher life. The Eastern Bloc, Iran, the Cubans...couple of outliers, but sure, kids come up much tougher in a lot of the countries where Wrestling is big. They don't have the option of sitting in their room drinking Monster Energy...whatever and live streaming their stupid video games. I respect everyone that's guts to step out onto the mat.

It's also difficult to his a Golf Ball 300 yards down the fairway. If you fail at that though, you're not getting your head shoved into the mat, slammed on your ass or out there, fighting off your back in front of everyone(and that's after you get past practice). How many of your friends did you think could make it through a Wrestling practice in HS? Aside from your Wrestling friends? I don't see how you can make teaching and then learning a double, single or all the basics that go into Wrestling "fun." I see how playing catch is fun or shagging fly balls, or taking batting practice. Wrestling is a hard, physical sport and...a lot of kids just don't like what it takes to get through the season, much less be great. We had tons of athletes coming out, but those first couple weeks in HS...where you need to build up your legs. Hardly the most intense practices, but we'd ALWAYS go from ~70 some and we'd be down to ~55 by the first duel and it went down from there. In Middle School, it seemed like almost everyone went out, but that's because it was popular in the area I was in. I never actually wrestled on the JHS team, but I'd go and see a lot of kids, and I guess they were having fun. But, the higher you go, the most physical the sport gets(and I'm not even talking about the best kids right now, I'm talking about the kids who aren't going to Fargo and doing all of that) -the most of a beating you take vs better Wrestlers...it just thinned out so quickly. And you can't exactly hide. In Football, you can just be soft and you don't play. In Wrestling, you're going to get exposed. And this is all without addressing the weight cutting. So when I say tough, I mean, mentally, physically tough, not the skill required. You're not pushing your body in those other sports to the limit like you are in Wrestling. Yeah, that's what was fun. Again, live Wrestling is also fun and I mentioned how my coaches would try to make some of the drilling fun(situational Wrestling, start in on a double and you Wrestle live, start in on a head inside single...etc..). But I think Wrestling is just unique in what is demands of you. Again though, while I don't think it's plausible that it could or ever was going to approach Basketball or Football level popularity, I don't agree with this premise that it's in a worse place or getting worse. It feels like Wrestling's in a good spot right now...again, in large part due to MMA helping make Wrestling a little bit more mainstream.

Yeah...that's what this is. Wrestling would be different if the ADs just pushed it. It's not that Basketball appeals to the masses because most kids play...or Baseball or Football, it's the "nitty gritty history of college athletics," that you get...that I just don't!

Ok...well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Then why don't you try to articulate it more clearly for me. What point exactly am I missing? How do YOU propose we make a sport like Wrestling anywhere near the level of popularity of Basketball or Football and how does it make me a victim to simply not agree that our sport can reach that level of popularity? How does it make me a "tuff guy" to believe Wrestling...is in fact a niche sport? How does not wanting your "prodigy" lose to a guy like Jordan Burroughs make it a niche sport and I don't get what a "guy like Jordan Burroughs is." Maybe I missed the point you made. So, lets try again. Tell me what I got wrong or what point I missed? You can make a point or just tell me I'm not getting it.

This is what I was referring to. I don't agree with the premise. We're seeing a whole lot of College Wrestlers winning Medals at the World Championships, or at the Olympic level while still in HS. Guys like Burroughs, Snyder, Stevenson, Yianni, Fix. Dake, Howe, Taylor...all were ready to compete at the international level, Burroughs was in there way. I don't see how guys in the 80s and definitely not the 90s were "much more international ready wrestlers," than we're seeing today.

I used HATE going to a practice...at my Club, HS, Camps, wherever...and drilling for 45 minutes. I didn't mind conditioning, but(this is going back 20+ years now) but just 10 single legs, 10 high crotches, 10... The best coaches would have you do that, then we'd Wrestle situations. Start in on a double, whistle, wrestle live from there. And then the live Wrestling was just fun. Especially if you had good workout partners and you could open up, try new things. And you need to drill. You need to drill until it becomes second nature that when a guy steps one way, you hit this shot, to hit that double off a re-shot. It's muscle memory, but it's not fun. The Wrestling part is fun. Wrestling is tough, that's why you have trouble retaining kids. Basketball is easy. That's why they don't have as much trouble. That's my opinion.