scourge165

LOL... PSU has a World Champ, a guy who just took 3rd and now a World Team Member all joining their record breaking team last year. Wrestlers who will score a single team point for Iowa in the future-0 Wrestlers who will score points for Penn State in the future. Duke beat a 4X Champ and a World Silver Medalist... Blaze just smoked a guy who's a 3X AA and took 2nd at a weight higher than he'll Wrestle! Haines won easily and Mesenbrink is running through 165 the next 2 years. But impressive little narrow pathway for Iowa to tie PSU in...some way!

I'd ask again why you are the way you are, but I'd get nowhere. Lee was a heavy favorite. Barr...was also a dog. Duke is a Sr in HS who wrestled a 4X National Champ. Did ANYONE think these guys were "unbeatable?" In fact, I think Flow picked these matches and...didn't they ALL pick this except for Mesenbrink?

I mean...I'm not saying you're "wrong." This is a totally subjective exercise to begin with and frankly a little pointless.... other than just BSing and having fun! Who's better, LeBron or Jordan, Brady or Montana...it's really all just subjective and people love arguing them. I think Dake, peak Dake at 149 was better at the NCAAs and would have beaten Caldwell. I also think Metcalf is right up there with Zain and anyone else at 149. That would seem contradictory, I get that. But I'm also thinking about that Caldwell 19-3 loss vs Metcalf in the same season he beat Metcalf by throwing the kitchen sink at him. I see a 149 NCAA Dake not being scored on, at LEAST not easily...and then just riding the hell out of Caldwell. But being as it's a fictional matchup... so you can't be wrong. I'd also argue that...149 when Caldwell won it wasn't particularly tough relative to any other year. Kyle Ruschell took a 3rd, Bryce Saddoris was in the semis. Both tough Wrestlers, but not quite like the prior year with Burroughs, and that "toughest weight ever," discussion. Brooks did lose to Marcus Coleman. That's my mistake. And yes, Askren being ahead of his time and you're belief that he was better at his "peak" definitely makes sense to me. All these make sense to me. Each point. Askren's... appearance also belied his strength and physical ability. I remember Dana White insulting him physically, but anyone remember him in on a single, arms stretched out, Jake Herbert, a BIG '74 pounder and Askren was on his stomach, Herbert was heavy hipping the hell out of him, he was trying to break his grip to get around behind and he couldn't. Askren's grip was insane and his shoulder strength AND flexibility was...just freakish. I don't think there's a Wrestler who could match him in that regard.

Very. I don't think he's touching Zain. I think Metcalf tried to bully guys a bit too much and got out of position and Caldwell let it fly, but...for instance, Soph Dake is dominating Caldwell...IMO. Also, didn't Metcalf tech Caldwell that year? May have been the All-Star Classic, but, I thought he teched him the same year he lost. Caldwell got the spladdle, Metcalf came back and just overwhelmed him. But I could be off on the year. He took a loss vs an Olympic Bronze Medalist. Who he lost to has to matter, no? Ruth lost to a guy who went 3,1,1,2 I don't think Nickal is beating Brooks. I just think Brooks had tougher brackets and Ryan Preisch and Nicholas Gravina, 1 AA between them(I think) wrestled Nickal to a 1 point match. He still won... but Brooks...I mean, the Olympic Bronze Medalist beating him in the B1Gs in OT... I think the way JB was ascending may be coloring that view. I remember him having a GREAT match with Andrew Howe where he jumped out to a lead and Howe just kept coming back and wearing him down. JB wasn't quite there yet(in terms of his peak) but if you think he beats Dake, Taylor...even Mesenbrink...I can see it. Askren, I think his peak year was his Jr year. What he did to Herbert and just how free he wrestled. The thing I'm doing is looking at how Starocci would Wrestle him NOW where he can limit the scoring and he's always in position, but nobody could do that to Askren. Take that Askren and put him in the 2025 NCAAs and I think Starocci beats him. But I can see the last two...I definitely can't see the two before that and I don't know who wins peak Abas vs peak Lee, so sure! They're definitely different perspectives and I don't have a problem with Askren over Starocci because...again, I think just going by tittles is boring and misleading. Not that I have a problem with any, the only one I think is a bit out there is Caldwell, but he did put on a display vs Metcalf!

I don't like Metcalf(the Wrestler...not the human, I don't know him). I just found so much of what he did to be performative and I don't care for the extra shoves and the pushing yourself up off a guys head and the extra shove out of bounds. It's...fake tough to me... BUT...when I saw someone say he didn't belong in the discussion, I thought that was...ridiculous. I think it's a given that as a Freshmen, he'd have competed for an NCAA Title. I think he'd have won it...which would have made that Caldwell match all the more important historically, but...still, he was the best Wrestler in the Country. Just as I still think Stevenson was the best Wrestler at HWT this year and Spencer Lee at 125 a few years ago. Not taking anything away from Caldwell. He did it twice. He wasn't afraid to pull the trigger and Metcalf's style was a detriment in that match, but IF you give Metcalf a 4th year, I think it'd be a REALLY tough call. But I don't know how you go against Retherford. 3X at 149... I don't think Ruth ever let his foot off the gas, I just think the sport got easier for him. Are you crazy for thinking a guy who went 3/1/1/1 would beat a guy who went 2/2/1/1? No...of course not. Ruth is an all-time great. Maybe he beats Starocci and Brooks. He was so smooth and so easy, relaxed. But it's an opinion. It comes down to how do you think Askren scores on Starocci/Ruth vs how do you think they score on him. I think Starocci was so methodical and Ruth was similar, but he was also more aggressive pulling he trigger in other area's that it may have actually hurt him.

What are you babbling about now? You're certainly not the only one who thought he'd be able to Wrestle at FinalX. In fact, most did. Saying "no one cares," is ignorant. Meanwhile, Downey, who you are a big fan of for some reason did about 20X what Snyder did and was not wanted just about anywhere. But sure, it was for "just breathing."

I'm sorry, what the hell am I missing? How is HE classless? Can't be this part. We all agree with this; Ignorance...as most of us are about the cause or his vaccination history. Still...hoping he makes a full recovery. Still not seeing what's classless yet. This surely can't be it. This is just... information how it could have gotten it a number of different ways and in no way focuses on Askren's personal issue or lies any "blame" or does anything to show any lack of class...so far as I can see.

Well...again, I found one source that said it was a 4-3 loss to Moore in a duel. They could have interpreted that as a duel. It could also be why the last time I asked ChatGTP is says he only has 2 losses as a Freshmen(which we know isn't true). It could be applying the modern rules of the All-Star Classic to that era...so assuming it doesn't go on your record when in fact it did back then? Seems like the most likely scenario to me. Just found the duel. It's gotta be the 9-8 All-Star Classic...Abas is undefeated 23-0. I'm watching this and thinking Abas gets hosed a couple times, namely on the lack of NF at the end and then HE get *I poop my pants, don't laugh at me* for stalling while riding? I don't, Freshmen vs the National Champ that year though. Two scores at the end of the period that are easy calls now, but were called quite a bit differently back then. Thoughts?

Oh...my bad. I guess...just bad luck. I don't know. I didn't pick up on the fact that you were asking a rhetorical question. My bad.

I believe Abas lost to Teague Moore in a duel as a Freshmen(so that'd be '98) but not certain. His official record is 144-4...so I don't think he had 4 losses as a Freshmen since we all know he lost the following year. He was unbeaten his final 3 years at at his weight and his lone loss was moving up so it could only have been his Freshmen year. He had one loss going into the NCAAs. Though given the score I got was 4-3 and that was the score of the Guerrero loss(before adding the riding time after the match which someone writing about it may not have understood) maybe it was the AS Classic and there was some confusion. Either way, lost to Moore, then Jurgens, Jurgens and when he moved up, Guerrero. And I guess technically, the All-Star Classic is a duel. Posting this just...because. You seem to have a better grasp on the details of his accomplishments of me, so I'd be inclined to take your word for it...it would almost certainly mean he beat Moore again in a duel though, right? They wrestled OK State every year... I'm been looking but AI isn't verry "I" just yet. This is what I come up with(knowing he did lose 3 times as a Freshmen and pretty sure it wasn't his True Freshmen year)... So...it can be hit or miss and this was clearly a miss.

Yeah...your reply probably does...along with a description about WTF your point is. The topic however, that was specifically related to Trans, DSD, Wrestling and other athletics. That's why when you write; It's so funny because it's just proof you don't even bother to read the thread, you just come in with an assumption, jump in with a ridiculous post(from someone else) and then you're confused why it's not related to the thread. "many a battle," eh? Arguing with yourself. I believe that's multi-personality disorder. But Jimmy/Scout/LBJ was just waiting for YOU @1032004to make that connection! And he used that ever so timely reference from that 30 year old TV show to insult you(I think it was an insult). I'm rather fond of the ellipsis myself. They.... make....less....sense when you don't put them...where a pause... in the sentence for impact...should go. I'd ask what you were waiting for someone to pick up on from your poor use of ellipsis... even for informal writing. I must admit, I do just find you to be generally entertainingly stupid, but it's late and I have to do this tomorrow.

I did? Huh...I don't recall doing that, but alright. You mean in a thread specifically dedicated to trans and DSD participation in sports? Yeah, for that reason. You genuinely sound and write like a teenage girl. wow.... b/c like...it's about the topic it doesn't fit(and expression no women has EVER said to you incidentally). omg like....get a brain! Did you just snort like 5 Adderall and think that post was really some poignant stamps on the discussion that cleared everything up? You aren't even remotely close to the topic.

Wow Jimmy! That's insightful! I think that YOU think you made a point there, but you didn't. I don't think gay marriage is "confusing to kids," particularly as she was talking about HS students. I do think it's kinda cute how you came back here after denying trans people were breaking the law in Algeria, puffed out and posted that like you were making a point! I'm not getting sucked into guessing what the meaning behind a post YOU MADE was, alright Jimmy?

No little Jimmy, we're not getting stuck in another Jimmy loop where you post something that's at best tangentially related and then you say "make the connection." And why the hell would we argue she's at a school board meeting talking about gay marriage? And I don't think kids find "trans crap" all that confusing. She's pretty clear in what she's talking about there and...I'm not sure YOU'RE able to make the connection. It's not about athletics at all, so...not related to this issue. So....again, you found a tweet that got lots of likes and you just...reposted it here. Also, my GUESS would be her point was more about the overall suicide rate up about 35% among teens since 1999 and that's not because they're exposed to 'trans crap.' But again, had you made your own cogent point here, we wouldn't have to extrapolate what she was talking about from a Tweet with no context other than 'lots of us believe in god, not many LGBT people,' which took up like...one sentence.

Well, if she has 3+ minutes and she doesn't bring up trans kids in athletics once, it's...not this topic. Sounds like she's broadly talking about LGBT being in the minority, last she checked, we're a Democracy, 50+1(she hasn't checked very recently because that's not how it really works) but i don't know what she was talking about. She just yellled or 3 minutes and we had no prior context ot what they were even talking about OTHER than apparently...some people were saying some good things and she didn't like that and felt compelled o let people know 50% of people in North Carolina(+1) are God Fearing.

Yeah...it's at BEST tangentially related, but it's Jimmy/Scout. They just find something with lots of likes and re-post it. The funniest is when they repost an article where the headline SEEMS like it matches what they're arguing, but then you read it and you realize...it doesn't. It's not even close...they just posted it without reading it as they have no attention span. Last I saw(or maybe I've just gotten good at ignoring him) he was still making the case it wasn't illegal to be trans in Algeria because some men abused boys in Afghanistan, right? That's about as coherent a thought as you'll get from him on a topic.

This is Jimmy/Scout level intellectually dishonest. What is my "side" you clown? What MORE would you like me to "debate" on this topic? Jesus Christ... I said I don't think trans women should be able to compete with women. What "side" is that on? I said I don't have enough information to make a decision about DSD but that I thought the Algerian Boxer was treated unfairly. What "Side" is that? I even agreed with the 'oh...no...I'm so afraid to say this, but what about 3 divisions,' post... you twat. That I'm sick of seeing Riley Gaines is that triggering for you? Beyond that, tell me what "side" I've been on that YOU haven't...excluding your willingness to watch Riley Gaines for the next 40 years repeat 'and then...there ....was a man and he had a penis in the locker room.' Yeah, got it 4 years ago Riles. Yeah, no, you're right. The guy who sexually abused her should be "thrown at her," in a Twitter War. So now I can completely dismiss the fact that you think...or at the very least CARE that Riley Gaines had to see Lia Thomas in the locker room. And you're exposing the hypocrisy of the "team" bu!!*I poop my pants, don't laugh at me* with the with your whining about me not being interested in a "dialectic." Which, I agree...implore you to show me what "dialectic," I've refused to engage in here on the "actual topic" rather than an "us vs them," which...I'm not realizing perhaps you identify as Riley Gaines as that's the only "them" I've been against.

I've saw... from a distance mostly, but got updates from my Cousin regularly...as her 16 year old Son, an elite athlete got cancer and went through hell. Put in multiple medically induced coma's because they were giving them so much pain medication, if they'd have increased it, it would have died. She had periods where their lungs kept filling and they were at the Mayo Center and hoping it would turn solid(I don't understand this to be clear) so they could take it out as it was drowning them. They were an elite athlete, they were 2nd in their class. And some child molesting Priests or a former Nazi will live to 100 or older. There's not a good why. We all have cancer in our bodies, the only question is if something else gets us first. Most athletes have staph. Trying to figure out why is a pretty normal question, but a fools errand. It's never a good enough answer(at least that's been my experience). Though... it's easier if this is a guy who smokes 2 packs a day for 40 years. I'll just dd this. I mean, I get it, you do all the things you should and your body betrays you.

I think it's more of a 'he has it coming for telling people to not get vaccinated.' There were people who thought you were endangering others if you didn't get vaccinated. And that made sense... until the vaccine was actually available of maybe shortly after when we found out, you're MARGINALLY less likely to transmit if you have it(if that was even true) and by telling people not to get it, people were at a higher risk for death. I don't know, I don't care, a lot of people had strong opinions about Covid. I had opinions about Covid...but, again, no MD in front of my name and Covid is over. People did this with Jamie Foxx on a CRAZY level. Claiming he had to get the vaccine to make a movie and now he has a blood clot and he's had a aneurism as a result or whomever. Continuing to litigate something people didn't understand at the time...a couple years later is annoying enough. Bringing it up when a guy is battling for his life is... disgusting.

Yeah, he loves to be that guy. This has become such a...sickening aspect of Covid that...sadly, people won't let die. -I've seen so many people ask if Askren "got the jab," and now this guy. I continue to refuse to believe people like this are in any way normal/speak for the majority of "their side," anywhere but social media.

Yeah, I didn't know we were moving on, but... this ivermectin thing, it's weird. It's like...it's for parasites. Undercooked food or tropical fruit fresh off the tree...miracle drug. Zero efficacy in cancer and covid, but it became this line where if you were pro-ivermectin, you were a 'free thinker man,' because you trust THIS big pharma drug! And if you were smart and...realized Covid wasn't parasitic, you were... for the system!

No it wasn't, Gaines was the obnoxious one. She was insufferable and she's been insufferable. She threw Larry Nassar back at Biles and then for the last couple years, she's just done nothing other than say, 'a man was in the locker room and we tied and they gave Lia Thomas the 5th place trophy instead of me,' which is...what they do in every situation in which someone ties. She's like a bot. She's just...the same over and over. You could just take the same interview from the last 3 years and just replay it.

God I hate people(some people). I think on top of wishing our best to the Askren family, we can also...wish our worst to this POS. For the record, I don't recall Askren saying anything about the vaccine, but...I also don't care as he doesn't have the state initials for Maryland in front of his fckn name, so...I don't care what he says about vaccines.

Ok, so then fair to say you have Taylor behind Deiringer at 165? That you have Abas at 125? Starocci could be the only choice at 174 Your team would have to be 125-Abas 133-Jurgens 141-Stieber 149-Zain 157-Nolf/Dake 165-Dieringer/Dake 174-Starocci 184-Brooks 197-Cael HWT-Snyder If you're strictly going by number of titles to determine HWT, one would assume you're doing the same at every weight, right? And if you're saying Snyder 3 tips the scales toward hm over Stevenson, then Abas 4th tilts it toward him over Lee. 33-This would be tougher, but this would basically just be a spreadsheet team...

Oh...I did all of this yesterday and walked away and forgot to post it. But, lets break it down. Abas 144-4 Losses Freshmen year-3 (Duel Loss 4-3)Teague Moore DNP, 4th, 1st, 3rd Eric Jurgens-2X 11-8, 5-3OT in the QFs and for 3rd place Jurgens 3,3,1,1 Soph-1X Eric Guerrero -Lost a 4-3 Match going UP a weight class in a Duel. Guerrero 5,1,1,1 That's 4 losses to a combined 8 NCs, 15 AA(no lower than 5th and 1 year DNP) He avenged the loss to Moore in the QFs 3-3 TB -Jurgens went up to 133 the next 3 years -Guerrero was already up a weight and he had a National Champ at his weight Spencer Lee 98-6(6 MFF that now count as losses, but...didn't at the time, so not fair to use it against him). Losses Freshmen-2 Ronnie Bresser (3-1) DNP, DNP, 7th, 8th Nathan Tomassello(2-1) 1,3,3,3 Sophomore-3 Sebastian Rivera(7-2) 6,3,4,3 Nick Piccininni(Fall 4:33) 4, DNP, 5, DNP Sebastian Rivera (6-4 OT) Sr-1 Matt Ramos-(Fall 6:59) DNP, 2nd, DNP, 4th That's 6 losses to 5 Wrestlers with a combined 1 NC, 18 AAs 6 DNPs There's a big more to it than that obviously...but that's one helluva career. You're really picking a style here. I think Abas could take Lee down multiple times. I think it's likely Lee could turn Abas. Healthy Lee vs Healthy Abas is a contrast in styles and...I think Abas wins 55 out of 100 matches. I don't think it's a blowout and if you think it'd be Lee, 60 or 70 out of 100, cool. He's good enough, you could make the argument. But Abas is one of the greats IMO(not that Lee isn't)...it's just more dominant the rest of his career. He's 145-3 if he doesn't bump up and lose a 4-3 match to ANOTHER guy who was a 3X National Champ. But you have 46 more wins, 3 fewer losses, no MFFs, he finished EVERY tournament he entered, and they both won 3 titles. 6th, 4th...not a huge difference. What Lee does from here on out won't change my mind...Abas taking a Silver didn't factor in. I also had Abas as one of my top 10-15 all-time, so...I've just been a bigger fan of him than most.