BruceyB

Yes, the 285s that push each other until one falls on their back and is instantly pinned is much higher level wrestling.. But because they were seniors instead of freshmen that means it's a hard weight class..

I want to start by saying that I respect your posts and find your input well thought out and generally insightful. But with your claim that most 149s would go to 157 rather than 141 is irrelevant. Both weight classes are in no man's land when it comes to Olympic weights. Naturally those with 65kg aspirations would prefer to wrestle at 141 which is much closer to 65kg than either 149 or 157.. the reality is that those that end up at 149 more often than not have simply gotten to large to be at their best at 65kg. Most of the problems come from guys having to try to make Olympic weights. If we had 10 weight classes during Olympic years, we wouldn't see Green, Pantaleo, Oliver, Retherford, etc. trying to force themselves into a weight where they are not at there best. Most of these guys are several years removed from college and the weights that they competed at 3, 4, or 5+ years ago isn't their issue at performing at the OTTs. The problem is that we have 15+ pounds difference between Olympic weight classes. The reality is, with the current distribution, 149s are either small for 74 or too big for 65, and 157s are far too large for 65 but still undersized for 74. Zane Retherford is perfect example of someone that isn't large enough to be at his best at 74kg but can't compete at his highest level at 65. James Green is an even better example of someone who can't make 65kg effectively, but isn't large enough to compete at 74kg. If you were talking only about current college athletes, I might agree, but more often than not, we are talking about graduates who have had several years to adjust their bodies to an ideal weight. When we are considering college weights to the 10 world weights, as you stated in your post, outside of the heaviest 4 weight classes, the rest are within a few pounds of the college weights.. which wouldn't be an issue for the athletes to adjust to. The problem is that we have athletes focused on Olympic weights which have huge gaps. If the options were 143 and 154 for Olympics, then you would see a more even split among 149s, but the fact is that 149s really only have 1 option, 143, or non olympic 154 which is an obstacle for their Olympic dreams. Knowing that many of them don't have a hope to get big enough and wrestle well enough to dethrone Dake or Burroughs at 163, they have no choice but to make the brutal cut to 143 instead. An athletes ideal weight is personal, the world weight classes are what they are. If Jordan Oliver's ideal weight was 65kg, he would have gone from 133 to 141.. but the reality is he was too big for 141, and luckily college had a weight for him. He didn't have to choose between 143 and 154. He could wrestle at 149 which was most comfortable.

And then water down that talent by all of those who choose another sport for college athletics.. I loved the kid, but I coached a 220 that ended up being a 2x state champion.. as an 8th grader, he literally couldn't do a somersault during warmups. He wound up a 2x NCAA qualifier at heavyweight in D1 wrestling. But like you said, people want to cherry pick the few guys that are tweeners as a justification for a new weight class.

I just wanted to highlight a lovely post from our friend @bnwtwg. I don't know how to quote someone from a separate thread, so I just c&p'd his post. I don't expect anyone to read this other than he, himself. But if nothing else, I wanted his comments to get the attention they deserve. "How many of you on this board have made the decision as a high level wrestler in the modern era including testings to either cut 30 pounds and be ragged, or stay where you are and hope your quickness overcomes the sheer strength advantage, or decide to bulk so hard that you are stiff as a board? I'll raise my hand. A better example of a MUCH more accomplished wrestler would be Jacob Warner. Or Michael Beard. Or Jacob Kasper. Or Kollin Moore. Et cetera et cetera. My guess is none of you hit 200 until you paid the dad tax with an extra cheeseburger and another beer. I was there by the middle of my sophomore year with a six pack that I maintained until I was 37. I was a better wrestler than football player and I love the sport, so did I make a mistake by going B1G in the wrong sport? A guy I lost to at HS state went pro in the NFL for a few years riding pine and I took me probably 12-15 years before my salary out-earned his fresh out of college paycheck. So yeah, I think I have an idea. Was I Kyle Snyder or Anthony Cassar? Hell no. They are the outliers, not reality. And last I checked, reality is this sport is withering on the male side directly due to NIL and football in that order, and the average American male is larger than ever. So my non-anecdotal evidence also confirms this butthurt bunch of previously skinny guys sucking in their gut to hunch over the keyboard should get over it and face the raw numbers. 103 is a weak weight full of underclassmen and undersized seniors. That's how I feel about your username." First of all @bnwtwg, is this post supposed to be some kind of humble brag about how you were over 200 pounds with a six pack until you were 37, and that you wrestled at a B1G school? You start your post by belittling everyone's opinions because we ourselves may not have had the dilemma of choosing to go up or down a weight as someone stuck between 197 and 285. However, I have made a cut of ~13% bodyweight just the same as 227-197 is. No, it was not fun, and, yes, it was in the modern era of testing. I was in good shape before the cut, and it did shrink my body over time. Regardless of your natural size, many of us, I am sure, have pulled more weight than we probably should have/would have desired in our time in the sport. You then go on to list names of guys who are all AAs and have achieved a high level of success in the most difficult level of folkstyle wrestling, so I'm not sure how they help your point. You would have been better off naming blue chip recruits that failed to have success in college because they were true tweeners. You move to the second paragraph and once again insult everyone on this forum by assuming that not of us were 200 pounds before you, essentially say, we became old fat slobs. Nice touch. And the third paragraph is where you really go wrong. You talk about how male wrestling numbers are dwindling due to NIL and football. Let us look at this. "Boys participation had the highest growth rate of all the major boys sports (+12.5%) and is now at the highest level since 1978 (US Wrestling Federation, 2024)." So actually, male participation is flourishing, not dwindling at all. But maybe I misunderstood and you meant male participation is dwindling in college wrestling? Wrestling for many years has had one of, if not the lowest percentages of high school athletes that go on to continue the sport in college. Is this because wrestlers have no interest in competing in college? No, it is because there are very few wrestling opportunities in college in comparison to high school participation. Well, given that there are more high school athletes participating in the sport now than since 1978, that would make college wrestling opportunities more coveted than ever. So if one athlete decides to go play football, does the coach just leave an empty spot on the roster, or does the next best option get the opportunity to wrestle in college? Surely the latter, so with that logic, you couldn't have meant less guys overall are competing in college due to NIL and Football. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since the two previous possibilities couldn't possibly have been what you meant. You're brighter than that. You must mean that the college level is losing elite level athletes by the enticing money of NIL through pursuit of football or other sports. Which athletes are wrestling losing here? 125s? Couldn't be. 149 pounders? Doubtful. Surely, the majority of the elite athletes that are being drawn away from the wrestling mats are the very guys you're arguing for, the specimens such as yourself that are 200+ pounds and shredded. The average male may indeed be larger than ever, but I would strongly question how much the size of the average wrestler has changed in the last 20 years. The truth is, the majority of elite athletes that are more than 200 pounds simply don't prioritize wrestling as their number one sport. And as you said, the number of those who pursue wrestling can only have further withered with the financial incentives of NIL in other sports. So it seems we are losing 197/285 wrestlers, resulting in fewer and fewer athletes that find themselves in a predicament such as yourself, because they are likely on the football field. You then go on to use your personal anecdote as if it speaks to the raw numbers. You fail to realize that while you may have been a tweener, the raw numbers would say that there simply are not that many wrestlers that are unable to follow a diet plan and compete well at 197, or get large enough to be competitive at 285. If you watered down the 2 weight classes that are undoubtedly suffering the most, as you claim, from football and NIL, you would greatly diminish the overall talent of the two weights by splitting them further. Many, many undersized heavyweights have seen a lot of success at the weight despite the size difference. It's really when you have the freaks like Gable, Parris, Kerkvliet, etc. where the size seems insurmountable, but they are few and far between. And you finish your anecdotal paragraph with a completely unnecessary insult to everyone on this board by referring to us as, "previously skinny guys sucking in their gut to hunch over the keyboard." Maybe if instead of being aggressive and disrespectful to everyone on this forum, you politely explained your experience with the weight I would feel more sympathy towards you. You could have just said that you were in fact once a tweener and that you felt the cut to 197 would leave you lacking energy/strength, and that you felt overpowered when wrestling with full sized heavyweights, and how you would have enjoyed your college wrestling experience much more if you were able to compete at a weight where you felt more comfortable. There was never any need to cut into everyone else to prove your point. You chose to be disrespectful and belittling when it was completely unnecessary. And then comes your final statement. This entire thread had nothing to do with 103 pounders, but you decided to include an insult to the weight class because.. what? @1032004 once wrestled that weight? I don't think anyone here would argue that 103 is anywhere near the toughest weight, but instead as you pointed out, it is indeed designed so that underclassmen have a weight class to participate in when they are smaller or develop later in their teens. Your comment was just a mean spirited and disrespectful statement towards someone for wrestling at what you feel is an "inferior" weight class, as if that has anything to do with the validity of his argument. You talk about 103 being a weak weight class when 220 and 285 spots in high school are, more often than not, filled by football players that have been convinced to come out for wrestling. My sophomore year of high school our heavyweight won states despite never having wrestled prior to 8th grade, and never attending a single practice that was not our public junior high and high school after school practices. They may be underclassmen, but I'd be willing to bet the house that the average 103 state champ has been wrestling longer than the average 220/285. And my very last and final point of contest is this. The heavyweight that won state that I mentioned in the previous paragraph.. yeah, he went on to play football in college rather than wrestle, no NIL incentives necessary, as they didn't exist. However, the guy he beat in the state finals indeed went on to wrestle in college, much like the wrestler you lost to at states that went on to pursue football rather than wrestle. So that is two anecdotes that we have experienced just between yourself and I where the lesser wrestler went on to wrestle in college. It seems reasonable to assume many of the best athletes at the heavier weights opt to pursue other sports after high school, leaving lesser athletes to fill the spots they left vacant. All this, and I am actually very much in favor of shifting 174-285. I believe that college wrestling is supposed to be a sport that is inclusive to athletes between 125-285 pounds. Despite the fact that 197 and 285 lose the most athletes to other sports, I am supportive of shifting the weights so that tweeners can more easily go down to 210-220 (whatever the weight might be). Many of us have sucked a lot of weight for various reasons, and I don't think that even the few true tweeners should have to either cut 30 pounds or try to stack on as much muscle as possible to be competitive on the mat, even if those two option often end up with a lot of success. Sincerely, "A previously skinny guy"

Hey, I said I'm surprised they don't have their own, not that they'd be popular.

I don't like the two pieces in general, but I dislike them even more when they are different colors like UNC's. The different colored shorts and shirt make it look like practice IMO. It's all preference though. I do wonder if all of us who dislike the two piece it's just because we aren't used to it and don't want what we're used to seeing change. I know that in my first few years of wrestling, I would have gladly taken the option of a two piece over what seemed at the time a goofy looking singlet. But now, I would gladly where the goofy looking singlet rather than a two piece. But if I were at practice, I'd rather wear the two piece than a singlet. I just don't know what I want anymore!

I wrestled where we had a dry season. That vast majority of guys still smoked or drank during the season at varying frequencies. My biggest takeaway from what our coach was trying to implement was that no one was partying or going out and making dumb decisions. If someone was drinking and made a stupid decision, it was easy to hammer the guy because his decision to break dry season led to him getting into trouble. I don't think the point was that it was a big issue if you had some beers with the guys at your house, it was more about creating a culture more focused on wrestling and less partying during the season.

9 listed.. two retired leaving 7 other coaches being in the Brands age range would mean that they old. I imagine within the next 5 years will leave far fewer. This is no slight against the Brands, 60 is just an older age for coaching. I am also curious out of this list, who is leaning most heavily on their assistants who act as essentially head coaches in the room, while they primarily take care of administrative tasks. I would assume that Metcalf has a lot of responsibility, just like Snyder in Nebraska. It seems like in the final years of a coaches career, they often slowly let go of the reigns and pass them to their successor. I imagine this is why Coleman Scott left UNC to come back to OSU before Taylor's name was considered a realistic possibility.

That's what I was thinking when I created this thread. I was curious if I was just oblivious to how often it has happened over the years, or if it is as rare as it seems to be. Most siblings end up at similar enough levels when they finish high school that they often are looking at similar types of programs.. and obviously when the older one chooses their school, it only makes sense for the younger one to follow. That's where the Blaze brothers are interesting, because obviously Joey is very good in his own right, but Marcus is just a different kind of animal. I never thought he would either, but it would have been awesome if Marcus went to Purdue. I'd love to see if that had any ripple effects. Who are some top flight recruits that did not commit to a mainstay wrestling program? KOT and Aedon Sinclair are two big time recruits to Missouri. TBF idk if Missouri really counts as a non mainstay at this time. But they aren't the big programs in the B1G, Cornell, OKST, etc. Alirez is probably the most notable in recent years by staying at Northern Colorado when they hadn't produced an NCAA in something like over 50 years?

I'd count this more than the Schultz' or the Deans. They're cousins that grew up wrestling together all the way through high school at St. Paris Graham. That was the Steiber led era that led Bo, Micah, and Rocky to break the family's Wisconsin legacy by being the first Jordan's to go to OSU.

I'm not including guys who are in their 2nd or 3rd year after bumping.. and I would like to see a bigger sample size. I also disagree with you and would consider someone who won a title, then bumped up and won again as an example of someone who did "better" at the next weight up, because 1. they didn't do worse, and 2. whether the weight class is tougher or not, they proved that they could go up in weight and win again by beating a different field of larger competitors. And my point of running these numbers was to see if there was a correlation between, for example, the improvement rate of guys bumping from 184 to 197 vs guys bumping from 125-133. The goal would be to see which weight has the most bump ups reach the finals and/or win the tournament. The highest success weight jump to the least successful weight jump. I read through the majority of the back and forth.. but evidence shows that guys who bump up in weight generally do better at their new weight than their old. Not everyone, obviously. So cherry picking examples to support either side here is a waste of time as there are so many examples of either side of the argument. You need a comprehensive list of guys who bumped weights and to know whether they improved or performed worse. To say guys who "stayed at the same weight do better than those who move up" and then to compare the number of champions who spent their career at a weight vs guys who bumped up is nonsense. Of course there are more champions that didn't jump up because more wrestlers stay at the same weight than jump up! It's pretty apparent more people perform better then they go up a weight class than not. There are multiple reasons this happens, things like.. they were likely cutting to much weight at hold their previous weight class, and that can obviously have negative effects on performance. They feel better at the new weight and are able to perform better. They are also another year older, more experienced, and further matured. Going up in weight is generally beneficial because the guys who do it obviously are moving up because their old weight class is no longer their ideal weight. The bump isn't caused by going up a weight class, it is by wrestling in their ideal weight class, rather than holding a weight that they no longer fit. And when it comes to the Yonger Bastida argument, last year was by far his best year, and happened to be his worst NCAA tournament. He was 26-0 with a ton of top 10 wins including Hendrickson going into the tournament. He had a bad day, was hurt, whatever. In 2022 when he placed, the only wrestler inside of the top 17 he faced was #11.. the bracket broke nicely for him to AA. The next year he lost to #13 and #7, and last year he lost to the #3 and #10. He has lost to everyone in the top 10 he's faced at nationals, and only beat one person in the top 15. If you made it this far, thanks for your time!

You have a lot of good points in here, and I tend to agree that while 197 is often a very competitive weight class, a lot of these guys have been bigger for most of their career and aren't necessarily as adept to wrestle through positions like you have to at lighter weights. I thought it was essentially a universal truth that light-middle light-weights often have more success when they grow into heavier weights later, because the guys aren't as fast, and at the lighter weights you generally get into more flurry/scramble positions than at the higher weights. I believe David Taylor said this when he made the jump from 112 his junior year to 135 for his senior year. I would argue, however, against 125s having a harder time jumping from 125 to 133 than guys do at other weights. Plenty of guys have had better years at 133 than they previously had at 125, but almost all of them were just sucking too much weight and couldn't perform their best at 125, and then when moving into a more natural weight (and having more experience), they perform better than before. I don't know if anyone is curious enough to pull the numbers.. but I wonder if you took all of the champs/and or finalists from 2000-2024 across all 10 weights, how many of the champions/finalists were in their first year at a new weight (true freshman don't count), and which weight had the most "bump up" champions.

I'm not trying to play devil's advocate, but does it not make sense to write/talk about topics that are receiving engagement on a forum and to take them to a larger platform? I do think they should state a disclaimer of where they found the topic and site any specific posters if they're going to steal their takes. I have wondered for a while why FLO doesn't have their own message board.. it would streamline this process and basically provide freelance content without having to pay for it.

If only solving addiction was so easy.

Fun fact, Vance's dad Ben was the first ever undefeated high school wrestler from Washington State. However, he was from a school district where high school was only 10-12, so he was an undefeated 3x State Champion. 2x All-American at Boise IIRC. RIP Broncos wrestling.

After watching him get ridden out by Hamiti at CKLV, I don't think he's in the conversation yet. After watching him get ridden out by Hamiti at CKLV, where IIRC he was never close to an escape, that is a concern with those top three guys. But his trajectory looks really promising moving forward.

We can fight this battle together until the end.

The OP asked about a dry program.. so the question is.. are vapes wet?

I guess we are just skipping the whole point of the discussion, eh @1032004?

Oof. You caught me with the title.. but not with the initial post. I actually didn't realize that before. If we want to go most prolific from different schools though, Nicky Suriano takes the cake. IIRC 3 seed for Penn St, champ for Rutgers, Guest at ASU, and champ for Michigan? His handle should be @therealwrestlingnomad

I have to veto on this.. they both wrestled for OU.

I don't know about Logan, but Josh Heil was a very solid D1 guy.

If you're referring to Sinclair and Buchanon, I gave the scoring breakdown a few posts up. But yes, it looked like a boy wrestling a man. Sinclair hit a nice drag in the opening sequence, and Buchanon was able to turn it into his own score in the exchange.. not many do that with Sinclair's drag. Buchanon really just kind of had his way.

It was all Buch. Takedown in the first with a tilt to go up 6-0 going into the second. Ended up scoring a couple more times, I believe it was 14-1 when Buch took a shot in the 3rd and Sinclair downblocked straight into an armdrag Scoring. 1st: 3 TD and 3 NF for Buch at the end of the first.. riding time well over a minute. 2nd :ESC Buchanon to make it 7-0, pretty clean TD to finish to make it 10-0, escape Sinclair.. he doesn't get into his stance as he circles to face Buchanon and he gets immediately doubled to make it 13-1. 3rd: Sinclair takes neutral, Buchanon takes a shot, Sinclair downblocks directly into an armdrag for a td.. escape Buchanon 14-4. Neither guys gets close to a score in the last minute and with riding time you have the final 15-4. Figured you might want more than just the final score for the prized Mizz Freshman.

I don't know if it counts as a loss or not. I didn't know about the teammate rule, and I'm not sure how the MFF rule counts when concerning teammates.. But if it does count as a loss, could it mean that Arnold is going to make his way down to 174 and the MFF counts as a ranked win for Ferrari at 184..?