BruceyB

I hope to see Zain embark on his own coaching path once he decides to hang 'em up. Hopefully as the former PSU athletes age out of competition we the nits embark on their coaching paths and can inject some excitement into some other programs.

I can't believe how massive these brackets are. U20s is going to be such a show. I can't wait.

I don't know. Welsh is obviously getting paid for his services, and if you're Iowa, or Missouri, why pay a guy to come fill a weight where you have a high caliber wrestler? It would make more sense to bring in a guy at a weight of need. PSU is the only team with such an embarrassment of riches that they would bring in a Rocco when they have a Ryder at home.

My point is that, to the best of my knowledge, no one on this message board knows what happened between Rocco and the PSU staff. I also don't actually care what happened between the two parties. I don't actually care if coaches are actively poaching athletes in the current landscape of college wrestling. Whether a wrestler is in the portal or not, we are living in an era of no contracts and everyone is a free agent. I understand that "technically" a student has to be in the portal to be talked to, but at this point, there might as well just be an open recruiting process every year.. athletes in the portal or not. My issue is people white-knighting for PSU when they don't know any more than the rest of us, but want to act as if lack of evidence is the same as lack of misconduct. I don't know if there was anything below board with the whole ordeal, and I'm not going to argue that there was anything below board.. because I don't know what happened. I'm also not going to argue that they did nothing wrong, because just like you, I don't know if they did anything wrong or not. Just because they haven't been caught doesn't mean they aren't doing anything wrong. How many basketball/football programs were caught years after their misconduct for paying athletes illegally in the last 30 years? Again, I don't care if they did contact Welsh "illegally." It's just obnoxious when people white-knight for PSU when they have no idea what actually went on behind the scenes. I do hope that @VakAttack enjoys watching PSU homers squirm to defend their program now that they are the evil empire of wrestling after having to fight the battle for Iowa all these years.

Got me.

My opinion has been made clear on this topic under different threads. In one sentence, there are no enforced rules in todays transfer/NIL era.. the only dummies are those that pretend that their team is engaging in the activity in a more "morally upright" way than the rest of the programs. Exhibit.. you. None of us know the finer details going on behind the scenes. It's dumb to attack PSU over their transfers, but it's even dumber to blindly protect them based on the "lack of evidence" for them doing anything wrong. Justify it however you'd like, but PSU has been much more cutthroat than any other program when it comes to bringing in outsiders over their own current athletes. Only the most woefully naive can convince themselves to believe the sentiment "These wrestler's are begging to come to PSU, what is Cael supposed to do? Say no?"

You love PSU more than Lucas Byrd loves his 6'3" girlfriend.

This is a clown take. I'm sure Welsh was begging to be let on the PSU team for little to no money while David Taylor was at his door step offering him a huge bag to change his mind.

I'm not going to sugar coat this. I think @JimmySpeaks is a complete imbecile. But I do agree that what students are earning directly from Universities (once the monet is no longer being laundered through collectives/boosters etc) should be public knowlege. College is now professional sports and just like in the NFL, NBA, NHL, MLB, etc. where contracts are disclosed publicly, so too should the money college athletes are making so that there is a more fair market value. I don't know if you or Wkn agree or disagree with that sentiment. In the current landscape, there is no reason to disclose NIL deals, but once money is coming directly from the institutions, IMO, that changes everything.

They both had incredible seasons, but at the end of the day, the Hodge is a subjective award and shouldn't change how you view a wrestlers career. Winning it says something, but not winning it doesn't say much. I don't look at Nolf, Zain, or Ruth any differently than Nickal because they aren't Hodge winners. Tbh, some weights are just easier to separate yourself from the field. Curious to see a chart of which weights have produced the most Hodge winners. I would certainly think it's 165 or higher.

I regret entertaining your opinion on the other thread. I wasn't familiar with the fact that you have no idea what you're talking about. I hope the you find yourself at a beach where everyone has matching towels, however. Do you believe that Antrell Taylor/Joey Blaze are more likely to win NCAAs in 2026 than Shapiro or Kasak? Certainly the predictive rankings support that claim.. I'm happy to set a bet here and now.. but you have to give me odds since the predictive rankings have Shapiro and Kasak as the prohibitive underdogs.

What is the difference between a pin and a knockout punch? In either scenario, you could be getting dominated, but in one exchange you change the tide and are declared the definitive winner. I'm agreeing with you that there are fluke pins and likewise fluke knockouts in boxing.. however.. the best of the best don't lose due to a fluke exchange. Again I understand your argument, but you are ignoring the fact that a pin is the most rewarded result in wrestling. Ask two-time Hodge winner Ben Askren which is a bigger sign of dominance.. in his junior and senior year of college.. being tech'd rather than pinned would have been a credit to the loser because he couldn't do what he was trying to do. Ben would have been upset to tech someone rather than pin them.. he must not understand what it means to dominate.

Don't get it twisted, this isn't a question about what would have allowed you to reach greater success, but which skillset would be the most fun to have had during your competitive/swimming ( @Wrestleknownothing ) career. I have a number included in the poll, but I'd love to hear other suggestions. I limited it to wrestlers post 2010 because the qualities most predecessors had that made them special have been carried on by more current wrestlers. (IE: no John Smith, Cael Sanderson, etc.)

This is just objectively wrong. What does the sport incentivize? If I'm looking to score points for my team, do I go for a tech or do I go for a pin? If I want to save energy, do I go for a tech or a pin? If I want to show that I can flip my opponent over and glue his shoulders to the mat, what do I do? Some techs are more dominant than some pins. You're basically arguing that a unanimous decision in boxing is more dominant than a knockout because all it takes is one "lucky" punch for a knockout, while it requires sustained superiority to earn a unanimous decision. Turning a man over, pinning both shoulders blades down and having the ref slap the mat is the most dominant win in wrestling. If pinning is a scapegoat for a lesser wrestler, then let's just give additional points for a fall and put the wrestlers back in neutral to finish the match. I understand the argument, but I'd argue that guys like Steveson, Mesenbrink, and Starocci actually lack the complete skillset to pin their opponents. If Mesenbrink had as many pins as he does techs, he might have actually won the Hodge, but unfortunately, he is a dynamo on his feet without the ability to consistently turn even lesser opponents.

What does being a 4xer have to do with the Hodge? Has anyone every won the Hodge with a less than 65% bonus rate?

David Taylor's losses are 100% to National Champs. Ben Askren is 153-1 if you get rid of his Pendleton losses FR/SO year Retherford 125-1 without his TRFR losses to Stieber Bo Nickal only has 1 loss to a non-champ (Nate Jackson) Isaiah Martinez never lost to a non-champ.. Gable Steveson.. Dan Gable.. Those are a handful that came to mind.. I'm sure the list is exhaustive. The real question would be the win/loss record of those to never win a championship. That's where wrestlers like Caliendo (so far), Tyler Caldwell, Daton Fix, etc. would be more interesting.

Askren talked about this recently too. How important it is to understand scrambles and that if you do X, the your opponent likely does Y, etc. etc. and understanding how to avoid putting yourself in dangerous scrambles. He talked about learning a lot as he had little tweaks and injuries while figuring out his fundamental scrambling style. It's kind of crazy to me, especially in regular season matches the positions these guys are putting their knees in.. hoping for a stalemate or to avoid a single takedown. I cringe so often hoping for a stoppage that the athlete literally put themselves in just because I don't want to see an injury.. I do wonder how much would be eliminated if the athletes willingly putting themselves into those positions stopped getting bailed out by PD calls. The rubber knee is the most obvious position here.

I think you're spot on when it comes to wanting different things from the sport. At this point, there are far from any indications that Steen would be any kind of an impact starter for a smaller program, and maybe he wants to coach high school, college, or be involved with wrestling in some other capacity.. continuing to develop and learn in a top tier D1 wrestling room is certainly good to have on a wrestling resume if those are aspirations.

OKST doesn't have any real depth at 125. Probably just offered him some money continue to come be a training partner for Spratley and continue to improve the room overall. Steen would have been questionable to make the 30 man roster at PSU next year.

Assuming Pablo goes on to predict future seasons, will this years data be included for larger sample sizes of individual wrestlers? Or is it purely a system based on same season results?

I'm really curious to see what the line-up looks like next year. It feel like the different possibilities make it impossible to really predict. We don't know which returners are changing weights, transfers are still likely to be brought in, and which true freshmen are going to be ready to step into the line-up and be favorites to AA in year one?

This is getting a little lost in Socratic questioning of what "poaching" truly means. I do not know if the events in December led to PSU representatives reaching out and seeing if Rocco would like to join them, or if Rocco reached out to see what they could offer him if he hopped on the PSU train. At the end of the day, PSU is not getting Rocco Welsh for free, and they brought in a high profile transfer from another school. I'm not claiming villainy. I just don't understand the efforts to act like PSU is operating in a more virtuous manner than any other of the big players.

Guaranteed later career glory? If you aren't making the line-up now, there's just as good of a chance a new young hammer or transfer will come in and take the spot you "thought" was going to be yours.

In general, I don't believe that many high caliber wrestlers at high profile schools are hopping into the portal without a pretty clear understanding of where they're going. It's definitely possible that Welsh didn't have direct conversations with the coaching staff, but I do not believe he got into the portal without knowing he was going to be welcomed onto the PSU team. @BAC Calm down it's not that serious. I am not claiming PSU blatantly poached Welsh, but to act like there wasn't contact between the two prior to his entrance into the portal is illegal. I believe he wanted a better training situation, and PSU gladly granted his desire. But in his interview he acted like he blindly went into the portal to see what kind of opportunities were going to be there for him, which I don't believe at all.

Let's be honest.. there are no rules currently being enforced. It is complete free agency after each season. This is true in wrestling as well as all other sports. Look at basketball.. in the history of March Madness, all 4 #1 seeds have never made it to the final four, yet this year that just happened. Talent is condensed, parity is diminished. Nothing is taboo, and everything goes. Calling out another program is either sour grapes or throwing stones from your own glass house. I despise it, but this is the current landscape of NCAA sports.