uncle bernard

How many times do I have to say I don't condone it. Are you stupid or something? Also, you can say this same thing about Israeli civilians who elect a government who illegally occupies Palestinian land. You can go in circles on this forever. My stance is clear. All the murder is bad. Your stance is "no, the Israeli murder is actually good and justified."

https://news.sky.com/story/its-important-to-separate-the-facts-from-speculation-what-we-actually-know-about-the-viral-report-of-beheaded-babies-in-israel-12982329 As I predicted, the story of the 40 beheaded babies is falling apart. The IDF has seen no evidence that it happened. It won't stop Western media talking about it though.

I don't know how to get this across to you, but they have already surpassed the complete scale of the Hamas attack with their retaliation in the last 48 hours. By the end of this, there will be significantly more dead innocent Palestinians. Collective punishment is a war crime. You're right that you don't see them. That's because they're only covered here when there are Western victims. That doesn't mean they don't happen. By Israel's own numbers, they kill 20x as many civilians. Your understanding of morality seems to think that because those are spread out over time instead of concentrated in short burst, they're somehow morally righteous.

Predictable. Let me simplify things for you. Israel has killed 20x as many Palestinian civilians since 2008. That ratio will increase after this weekend (by the way they just bombed the bridge Netanyahu told Palestinians they could leave over, killing many more innocent people). Is a 20x civilian murder rate enough for you to say that they aren't totally innocent?

Also, I'm pretty confident the "40 beheaded babies" story will prove to be untrue. The reporter at the source of that story is already backing down saying her only source was an anonymous IDF soldier who "believed" it happened, but didn't see it. The music festival massacre also will likely prove to be misleading. Civilians were likely killed in the crossfire between Hamas and IDF soldiers. IDF had tanks at the scene (on video). It wasn't the undefended group of peace festival attendees it was described as (wasn't a peace festival either, just a regular rave). Doesn't change that hundreds of civilians were murdered. Doesn't make it less tragic. Doesn't absolve blame. But the painting of the narrative to make it look like one side is especially brutal is one reason we're here today. It's how more people end up dying. It's how Israel gets permission to murder thousands of civilians in response. And that in turn strengthens Hamas' position as the only path of resistance to Israel. After all, we should know better. We've seen lies like this before have huge consequences. https://www.democracynow.org/2018/12/5/how_false_testimony_and_a_massive "NAYIRAH AL-SABAH: '.... While I was there, I saw the Iraqi soldiers come into the hospital with guns. They took the babies out of incubators, took the incubators and left the children to die on the cold floor. It was horrifying. I could not help but think of my nephew.' PRESIDENT GEORGE H.W. BUSH: 'They had kids in incubators, and they were thrown out of the incubators, so that Kuwait could be systematically dismantled.' Three months after Nayirah testified, President George H.W. Bush launched the invasion of Iraq. But it turned out Nayirah’s claims weren’t true. No human rights group or news outlet could confirm what she said. It also turned out Nayirah was not just any Kuwaiti teenager. She was the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to the United States, Saud Nasser al-Sabah. She had been coached by the public relations firm Hill & Knowlton, which was working for the Kuwaiti government."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settler_violence https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/3/3/israeli-settler-attacks-against-palestinians-by-the-numbers https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-west-bank-settlers-attack-bengvir-netanyahu-f59bad22ce74ca2ea99ebc5ce54e727b https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/6/palestinian-killed-as-israeli-settlers-attack-west-bank-town-of-huwara Day before the attack. These settler raids and murders have been happening with increased frequency the last year. This isn't hard to find if you took the time to look yourself. https://www.cair.com/cair_in_the_news/israeli-guards-rape-palestinian-women/ https://www.dailysabah.com/world/mid-east/deceased-israeli-soldier-boasted-about-raping-palestinian-woman https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-691641 - The IDF has a long established history of rape and sexual assault against both Palestinians and Israelis As to the final charge of "mowing down youth" - Israel killed 91 Palestinian children...yesterday alone. https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/08/28/west-bank-spike-israeli-killings-palestinian-children - Here's a Human Rights Watch article detailing the high amount of Palestinian youth murdered by IDF soldiers - largely with impunity. I know I'm wasting my time. You're going to handwave it away like it doesn't count or something.

You're arguing with the UN on this? The bolded is a war crime by the way. The Palestinians already outnumber the Jews. That's why Israel is moving to strip their political rights even further. If they enfranchised the people in occupied land, Israel would no longer by a Jewish majority state. While Westerners quibble about whether it's apartheid because of this and that reason, the Israeli government is pretty explicit that it's seeking to establish an apartheid system where non-Jews do not have the same rights.

Israel is doing all of those things too. The one-sidedness of Western outrage is part of the problem because as long as Israel is allowed to murder with impunity, Palestinians will return the favor.

Not talking about the UN Plan (though I think it was misguided). It's what happened afterwards. Look at the map. They were meant to share the land as one people, not steal it. And all of that is explicitly illegal under international law.

ooof @GreatWhiteNorth

Are you for real? lmao That's not even disputed history. If you're interested in learning, read up on "The Nakba" here: https://www.un.org/unispal/about-the-nakba/ "In November 1947, the UN General Assembly passed a resolution partitioning Palestine into two states, one Jewish and one Arab, with Jerusalem under a UN administration. The Arab world rejected the plan, arguing that it was unfair and violated the UN Charter. Jewish militias launched attacks against Palestinian villages, forcing thousands to flee. The situation escalated into a full-blown war in 1948, with the end of the British Mandate and the departure of British forces, the declaration of independence of the State of Israel and the entry of neighbouring Arab armies. The newly established Israeli forces launched a major offensive. The result of the war was the permanent displacement of more than half of the Palestinian population.... ....The Nakba anniversary is a reminder not only of those tragic events of 1948, but of the ongoing injustice suffered by the Palestinians. The Nakba had a profound impact on the Palestinian people, who lost their homes, their land, and their way of life. It remains a deeply traumatic event in their collective memory and continues to shape their struggle for justice and for their right to return to their homes."

Spot on. And to add, any damage that Hamas does to Israeli citizens only bolsters the Israeli right wing, keeps him in power, and most importantly out of jail for his corruption charges.

This is what it boils down to.

Good thread analogizing what living in Gaza is like in an American context. If you care to understand what could turn people into bloodthirsty killers, read it.

By the way, you all may think I'm some kind of loony leftist or whatever, but Haaretz, the paper of record in Israel, is saying all of these things right now.

I don't claim to have a magic answer. But you start with enforcing international law. The illegal settlements should be disbanded. The blockade on Gaza ended. Special privileges for Jewish citizens ended. Equal rights for Jew and Muslim. End illegal imprisonments of Palestinians. Thousands are being held indefinitely with no charges and don't know where they are or why they're there. Equal access to the political process. In other words, start acting like a Democracy, not an autocratic ethnostate. But you can't even get to that point until you understand that the current situation is wrong and the current situation is dictated by Israel.

Morally bankrupt attitude. If you don't care how it happened, you don't care that it will happen again.

That word does not mean what you think it means. You can say something is bad and then ask "how did it happen and how do we keep it from happening again?"

I misread that as a response to another part of my post. My bad. Seeing as how you don't, why aren't you focusing more on Israel since they've murdered far more civilians than Hamas. Why is it always Hamas' fault for responding to the initial murder (and no this isn't justifying the response @mspart) Haven't we reached this point because we've spent the last 75 years enabling Israel's subjugation and abuse of the Palestinians? The UN has tried to enforce international law against them over and over again. We use our veto power every time. Their politicians campaign on wiping Palestine off the map. We continue to fund them anyway. Does law exist or not? How can we expect things to change if we continue to allow Israel to proceed with its crimes unpunished? If we don't change things, how can this all end except in genocide and ethnic cleansing?

Patient: "My throat hurts." Doctor: "You have strep throat." Patient: "Oh, so now we're JUSTIFYING the Streptococcus pyogenes bacterium?!?!"

Yes, it was a cowardly murder. I agree. But how did we get here?

Israel also doesn't care about the civilian population of Gaza. That's why they kill so many of them. Still waiting on that condemnation!

Understanding why something happens is not justifying it. This is basic level reasoning my friend. My Bears defense is horrible on third down. When I tell you it's because they play an incredibly soft zone with no creativity, am I justifying that coaching choice? Obviously not. I'm telling you why it's bad!

Check back in a week brother. Netanyahu has announced a ground invasion. They're blowing up the largest residential buildings in the strip. Very telling that you're trying to nitpick the definition of "level" instead of answering the question. Do you condone Israel's murder of civilians or not?