Takeaways from Forrest vs. Ayala

[He Rassle]

• This match shows how redshirt pull is best for Jax' legacy, even if he doesn't win it all this season: The excitement of how he initiated action is good for the sport and fans appreciate that more than just winning.
• Ayala acquitted himself well anyway: dude didn't quit, got a super-quick escape at the end of the 2nd, and he even, maybe, should have been awarded a takedown earlier in the match
• 133-difficulty discussion elevated more by this match than any other so far: and it still includes Ayala
• the 3pt takedown still sucks: While Forrest still had to earn the tech, a 2pt takedown would have kept it close enough to see more great mat wrestling

[juniorvarsity]

Ayala coud have gotten his own TDs to make it closer. This does not make the 3 point TD suck. 

You're basically saying the match was so fun, it would have been cool to take 4 points away from Jax so we could watch it longer. That's crazy!

It's 2 for 2 or 3 for 3. When you approach tech fall territory, it's very rare that a comeback is remotely attainable. 

He definitely could have been awarded a takedown right before he got cradled or even gotta the first takedown from the slide-by. But reaction time being what it is, it's hard to say - which is absurd that there's so much gray area.

[Simpleman424]

I think I called it about a month ago but I think your NCAA Champion is likely Jax or Seidel…and I don’t think Ayala will AA. IF he does he’s sliding in at 7-8 at best.

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

Can anyone say way a straight face that Ayala performed well? He got tech falled by a kid who was in high school 6 months ago. A guy who is a back to back NCAA finalist was made to look like a complete fish. 

[Chiljx]

By the number 5 freestyle wrestler at his weight in the world…

[ionel]

9 minutes ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Can anyone say way a straight face that Ayala performed well? He got tech falled by a kid who was in high school 6 months ago. A guy who is a back to back NCAA finalist was made to look like a complete fish. 

ahh ... its still February ... he was in high school less than 3 months ago.  

[jackwebster]

18 minutes ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Can anyone say way a straight face that Ayala performed well? He got tech falled by a kid who was in high school 6 months ago. A guy who is a back to back NCAA finalist was made to look like a complete fish. 

I cant believe Im going to respond, but Ayala did some good things: he burned Forrest on that first slide-by and initially thwarted Forrest's own slide-by by hiding his left arm. So, JF attacked the other side with that hi-c. That hi-c opened the right side. 

DA escaped a very dangerous top wrestler two times (one in the final seconds of a period). More impressive was his ability to slip the leg. Ill have to check, but I don't remember Seidel having any luck in this position this. 

Re cradle: what can you say? As the announcers pointed out, DA's position (head-in-the-knee) is what we're all taught to do in the situation. But, JF apparently doesn't care ..

Re fish: uncalled for, man. An argument could be made for the guy who got pinned in a half-ass navy.

 

Edited February 23 by jackwebster

[He Rassle]

2 hours ago, juniorvarsity said:

Ayala coud have gotten his own TDs to make it closer. This does not make the 3 point TD suck. 

You're basically saying the match was so fun, it would have been cool to take 4 points away from Jax so we could watch it longer. That's crazy!

It's 2 for 2 or 3 for 3. When you approach tech fall territory, it's very rare that a comeback is remotely attainable. 

He definitely could have been awarded a takedown right before he got cradled or even gotta the first takedown from the slide-by. But reaction time being what it is, it's hard to say - which is absurd that there's so much gray area.

I'm saying the match probably wouldn't have been a tech fall without the 3 and that I would rather it be harder to get a tech fall; and, yes, I would've liked to've seen another minute. Not sure why that's crazy.

[BAC]

I do agree Ayala showed some fight even when the score was lopsided, but that's faint praise for a guy who nearly got teched.  I think he's just not on the level of these killer freshmen.

I still slightly favor Blaze and Davino over Jax, as they're a little better defensively and know how to wrestle Jax.  Especially Blaze.

Seidel is the only other guy who can give Jax a match, as he's shown.  Crookham too, but sadly we won't get to see that this year. 

Byrd has solid defense when he wants, but my guess is he tries to use his offense against Jax and gets clowned.  

I think Ayala will AA, just way lower on the podium.  

I like the 3 point takedown.  I don't see why this match is an argument against it.  If you're saying it makes techs too easy/quick, I don't see that -- especially given that Ayala gave up backs.  If this were freestyle, the match would've been over much sooner, even with a 2 point takedown.

[PortaJohn]

2 minutes ago, BAC said:

I think he's just not on the level of these killer freshmen.

This.  This many super frosh in one weight class is nothing we've ever seen before

[jbai3_12]

52 minutes ago, jackwebster said:

I cant believe Im going to respond, but Ayala did some good things: he burned Forrest on that first slide-by and initially thwarted Forrest's own slide-by by hiding his left arm. So, JF attacked the other side with that hi-c. That hi-c opened the right side. 

DA escaped a very dangerous top wrestler two times (one in the final seconds of a period). More impressive was his ability to slip the leg. Ill have to check, but I don't remember Seidel having any luck in this position this. 

Re cradle: what can you say? As the announcers pointed out, DA's position (head-in-the-knee) is what we're all taught to do in the situation. But, JF apparently doesn't care ..

Re fish: uncalled for, man. An argument could be made for the guy who got pinned in a half-ass navy.

 

I thought DA wrestled "well" for being tech falled. Before the cradle, even with his head on the inside, he momentarily stopped wrestled, which he cannot due against Jax. I can see Drake in the top 5, he's been close on TD's with Blaze and Jax, hopefully he can turn close into 3 points in the post season. 

[Doublehalf]

7 minutes ago, BAC said:

I do agree Ayala showed some fight even when the score was lopsided, but that's faint praise for a guy who nearly got teched.  I think he's just not on the level of these killer freshmen.

I still slightly favor Blaze and Davino over Jax, as they're a little better defensively and know how to wrestle Jax.  Especially Blaze.

Seidel is the only other guy who can give Jax a match, as he's shown.  Crookham too, but sadly we won't get to see that this year. 

Byrd has solid defense when he wants, but my guess is he tries to use his offense against Jax and gets clowned.  

I think Ayala will AA, just way lower on the podium.  

I like the 3 point takedown.  I don't see why this match is an argument against it.  If you're saying it makes techs too easy/quick, I don't see that -- especially given that Ayala gave up backs.  If this were freestyle, the match would've been over much sooner, even with a 2 point takedown.

Damn can you imagine if crookham was healthy in that bracket too?

[bnwtwg]

25 minutes ago, Doublehalf said:

Damn can you imagine if crookham was healthy in that bracket too?

Crookham would get stalled out by this crop of 133. The blueprint is out on how to beat him at his own game and this class is savvy beyond their collective years.

Edited February 23 by bnwtwg

[KennyEBHS]

The Brands Brothers have worn Drake out. Not uncommon for Iowa wrestlers to be beaten up by the time they become seniors.

[He Rassle]

35 minutes ago, BAC said:

I like the 3 point takedown.  I don't see why this match is an argument against it.  If you're saying it makes techs too easy/quick, I don't see that -- especially given that Ayala gave up backs.  If this were freestyle, the match would've been over much sooner, even with a 2 point takedown.

It by definition makes techs quicker and easier. And coach Taylor had him let him up instead of trying to turn him, meaning he felt it was the better chance to get the tech. Don't get me started on freestyle.

[BAC]

2 hours ago, He Rassle said:

It by definition makes techs quicker and easier. And coach Taylor had him let him up instead of trying to turn him, meaning he felt it was the better chance to get the tech. Don't get me started on freestyle.

Well sure it makes techs quicker/easier, but the question is whether it makes them *too* quick/easy. I don't think so. Can you name a single folkstyle tech you've seen where you thought, "gee, if only the match went on longer, the guy who just got teched would've come back to win"?  Yeah, me neither.

I think an argument could even be made that under the old rules, it took too long to score a tech, at least where it was based only on TDs. 10 first period takedowns would still be a 10 point gap (20-10). Do we *really* need to see the guy who just got taken down 10 times humiliated for 4-5 more takedowns in the 2nd period?  Now that match is over after 7 straight TDs (21-6), which seems a bit more... humane.

But the real benefit of the 3 point TD is to make the guy who gets the TD the victor in those one-takedown matches where the other guy just gets escapes or RT. In those situations, it forces that guy getting taken down to try to score, rather than just relying on escapes and riding to eke out an offense-free win. In retrospect, it's kind of crazy that under the old rules, a guy could get taken down twice in the first period and still win despite scoring zero offensive points. (TD, E, TD, E, E, RT, OT-RO.)  

I'd be more sympathetic if you complained about the 4 point NF (which I favor too, but is more debatable). I'm sold on the 3 point TD though.

[bnwtwg]

14 minutes ago, BAC said:

Well sure it makes techs quicker/easier, but the question is whether it makes them *too* quick/easy.

Refs don't even call takedowns at this point so saying it's too easy doesn't pass the smell test at this broken point in folkstyle history

[jackwebster]

1 minute ago, bnwtwg said:

Refs don't even call takedowns at this point

Context?

[He Rassle]

10 minutes ago, BAC said:

Well sure it makes techs quicker/easier, but the question is whether it makes them *too* quick/easy. I don't think so. Can you name a single folkstyle tech you've seen where you thought, "gee, if only the match went on longer, the guy who just got teched would've come back to win"?  Yeah, me neither.

No, but I mention it specifically in relation to this match not because I thought Ayala could come back, but because it would have made for another meaningful minute during which he'd have had a chance to prevent it. With a closer score, maybe OKC/Forrest decide not to cut him but go for a turn. Maybe he gets a pin. Maybe he cuts him twice and Ayala gets a takedown himself at the end.

[bnwtwg]

10 minutes ago, jackwebster said:

Context?

Reaction time, lack of reaction time, overreaction time, time of action, no one knows what a takedown is anymore and the only consistency is that they are being called inconsistently. I'm eagerly awaiting a cumulative 10 hours of reviews Thursday-Saturday morning and another 45+ minutes during the finals, and in each scenario common sense will not prevail.

[CHROMEBIRD]

4 hours ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Can anyone say way a straight face that Ayala performed well? He got tech falled by a kid who was in high school 6 months ago. A guy who is a back to back NCAA finalist was made to look like a complete fish. 

Kinda surprised to see Jimmy put Ayala on blast. I thought for sure he'd be confidently proclaiming Jax as the next 159-0 guy

[jackwebster]

25 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

Reaction time, lack of reaction time, overreaction time, time of action, no one knows what a takedown is anymore and the only consistency is that they are being called inconsistently. I'm eagerly awaiting a cumulative 10 hours of reviews Thursday-Saturday morning and another 45+ minutes during the finals, and in each scenario common sense will not prevail.

Gotcha, and you're right: It's tough to get agreement between neutral observers and impossible for partisans. But let's not forget some of the wacky no-reaction-time calls. Remember Kindig's back-arch from Houdashelt's illegal hold? This won Flo's "Dirt of the Week" or whatever they used to call it.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1177188199001680&vanity=FloWrestling

 

 

 

Edited February 23 by jackwebster

[Rassling]

 

Just watched a Flo interview with Jax after his match with Ayala. His confidence and comfort in front of the mic reminds me a lot of Yianni. Some of his wrestling style also reminds me of Nolf, especially the way he locked up that cradle. After watching this match a few times and now this interview, Blaze is no longer a shoe-in imo.

[LT95]

My takeaway is how good Seidel must be

[Maxwell Smart]

Drake isn't beaten up because of the Brands Brothers. That's an old take that just falls flat.