New National Champs Format

[GreenHorn]

NCAA golf already laid out the perfect template for wrestling to follow. They still have stroke play to determine individual champs. (Compare this to individual tournaments at each weight that would crown individual wrestling champs). Then the top eight teams in stroke play advance to match play to determine the team champion. (I’d say the top four or maybe only top two teams advance to duals to crown the team wrestling champion).

Basketball has expanded their postseason to include more than 64 teams. Football has obviously expanded their postseason. Similarly, one more day of wrestling the weekend after the tournament could work. I think a network would definitely grab it.

Has something like this already been proposed to the NCAA?

[NM1965]

3 minutes ago, GreenHorn said:

NCAA golf already laid out the perfect template for wrestling to follow. They still have stroke play to determine individual champs. (Compare this to individual tournaments at each weight that would crown individual wrestling champs). Then the top eight teams in stroke play advance to match play to determine the team champion. (I’d say the top four or maybe only top two teams advance to duals to crown the team wrestling champion).

Basketball has expanded their postseason to include more than 64 teams. Football has obviously expanded their postseason. Similarly, one more day of wrestling the weekend after the tournament could work. I think a network would definitely grab it.

Has something like this already been proposed to the NCAA?

I think the problem is that there is a limit to the number of matches guys can wrestle in a single day. I just found out about the match limit a few weeks ago. 

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

While this sounds cool as a fan, it would mean wrestlers would wrestle a FULL tournament's worth of matches then have to wrestle another 3 duals on top of that to crown the champ.  And even more to crown 3-8th place teams.

That's a lot of matches and the risk of injury affecting the results would be magnified accordingly.

To make this workable the matches would have to take place over 2 weeks, minimum.

Edited November 18, 2025 by Jimmy Cinnabon

[Mr. PeanutButter]

This sounds like a nice idea that is bandied about but would be difficult to pull off. Chief among the issues are: 1) don't fook with the crown jewel in anyway, 2) timing

Having the dual champs after the tourney means you mess with the timing of the crown jewel (no go) or some guys are gonna be so physically macerated as to be unavailable or just not as capable. 

[Gene Mills Fan]

the freestyle overlap may make it unmanageable

[Pinnacle]

7 minutes ago, Gene Mills Fan said:

the freestyle overlap may make it unmanageable

Brain

[VakAttack]

12 minutes ago, Mr. PeanutButter said:

This sounds like a nice idea that is bandied about but would be difficult to pull off. Chief among the issues are: 1) don't fook with the crown jewel in anyway, 2) timing

Having the dual champs after the tourney means you mess with the timing of the crown jewel (no go) or some guys are gonna be so physically macerated as to be unavailable or just not as capable. 

 

The team aspect holds almost no value at the current tournament.  It barely gets acknowledged until the very end.  We should be CREATING value, including properties to sell to broadcasters like ESPN.  Determining the champ in a direct, on-the-mat competition between two teams is the best way, and is the easiest way to package the team champ to less intensive fans.

[alex1fly]

2 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

 

The team aspect holds almost no value at the current tournament.  It barely gets acknowledged until the very end.  We should be CREATING value, including properties to sell to broadcasters like ESPN.  Determining the champ in a direct, on-the-mat competition between two teams is the best way, and is the easiest way to package the team champ to less intensive fans.

Exactly. You don't tank good ideas because every detail isn't worked out perfectly beforehand. It's worth a good faith discussion on how to make it work. Pointing out flaws is a good place to start, but how do you address those flaws to make it a good formula.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

I'm not looking it up, but I think tennis has a similar system that was recently adopted.

[Alces Alces Gigas]

Show me a championship team in the last 15 years that couldn't have won a dual  title as well?  

 

 

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

While we are being creative, why not get rid of the current tournament format completely and make it only a team dual title starting with the top 32 teams in the field?

Then every wrestler on the last team standing is a national champion.

[Gene Mills Fan]

3 minutes ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

While we are being creative,

lets say a world champion and a 2x 2-2 at ncaas is a coin flip

[NM1965]

1 minute ago, Gene Mills Fan said:

lets say a world champion and a 2x 2-2 at ncaas is a coin flip

What'choo talkin' 'bout Willis? 

[Gene Mills Fan]

1 minute ago, NM1965 said:

What'choo talkin' 'bout Willis? 

 44 minutes ago, NM1965 said:

Why? They'd beat Ohio State by 12 points, at least, in a dual meet. Probably by a lot more. 

Jimmy Cinnabon:   125 Lilledahl vs Bouzakis [coin flip]

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

4 minutes ago, Gene Mills Fan said:

lets say a world champion and a 2x 2-2 at ncaas is a coin flip

Bouzakis can pin anyone.  Lilledahl was pinned by McCrone last year, if you forgot.

[NM1965]

1 minute ago, Gene Mills Fan said:

 

 44 minutes ago, NM1965 said:

Why? They'd beat Ohio State by 12 points, at least, in a dual meet. Probably by a lot more. 

Jimmy Cinnabon:   125 Lilledahl vs Bouzakis [coin flip]

Oh that. Hehehe, yeah, it was quite a reach by Cinnabon:D It wasn't his only one, either. 

[Gene Mills Fan]

Just now, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Bouzakis can pin anyone.  Lilledahl was pinned by McCrone last year, if you forgot.

so its 50/50 he gets pinned by Nick?? coin flip

[NM1965]

1 minute ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Bouzakis can pin anyone.  Lilledahl was pinned by McCrone last year, if you forgot.

Falls happen. Better wrestlers get pinned quite often. I look at falls with the gimlet eye, unless I know the guy who got the fall was winning by points already. If Lilledahl and McCrone wrestled 100 times do you think McCrone would win half the matches? Fluke falls happen, bud. 

[jchapman]

Carl says "no". End of story.  Wait until he retires to bring this up again.

[Pablo]

11 minutes ago, NM1965 said:

Falls happen. Better wrestlers get pinned quite often. I look at falls with the gimlet eye, unless I know the guy who got the fall was winning by points already. 

This is an interesting question.  In assessing outcomes, I have found that, on average, a pin has about the same predictive ability as a 6 point win.

In other words, if a wrestler beats his opponent by 6 points and they wrestle again, the chance that the other person wins is about the same as if the first match ended up in a pin.

Now, I have some data that suggests that fast pins are more informative than if they happen later.  For example, a pin in the first minute has about the same information as a 10 point win, and pins that happen later in the match are less informative.  For example, a pin in the third period is more like a 5 point win.  This is based on match outcomes from last year where wrestlers faced each other more than once.

Tech falls are far more informative.  Guys that win by tech fall almost always win in a rematch (but not always, amazingly)

[Gene Mills Fan]

32 minutes ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Bouzakis can pin anyone.  Lilledahl was pinned by McCrone last year, if you forgot.

Ryan might go with McCrone for the above; is McCrone the favorite in YOUR projection?

I guess you still give Ohio 125   6 to make it close.

Edited November 18, 2025 by Gene Mills Fan

[Caveira]

1 hour ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

While this sounds cool as a fan, it would mean wrestlers would wrestle a FULL tournament's worth of matches then have to wrestle another 3 duals on top of that to crown the champ.  And even more to crown 3-8th place teams.

That's a lot of matches and the risk of injury affecting the results would be magnified accordingly.

To make this workable the matches would have to take place over 2 weeks, minimum.

Tis how Illinois state is done.   I think there is a two week gap and a lot of the competitors bump up a weight 

[Rassling2]

45 minutes ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Bouzakis can pin anyone.  Lilledahl was pinned by McCrone last year, if you forgot.

The Bouzakis cradle - no one is getting out from that. 

[NM1965]

6 minutes ago, Caveira said:

Tis how Illinois state is done.   I think there is a two week gap and a lot of the competitors bump up a weight 

Wait a second, are you saying in Illinois they have a dual championship, THEN BUMP UP A WEIGHT before states? That makes no sense. Make it make sense, please. 

[NM1965]

Just now, Rassling2 said:

The Bouzakis cradle - no one is getting out from that. 

I bet I could. I do have a slight 100 pound weight advantage over him though, and a not so slight 40 year edge as well.