Flo's Quarter-Century Team (Recency bias?)

[JimmyCinnabon]

4 hours ago, Jon_Kozak said:

No criteria other than who you think is the best 133-pounder of the last 25 years. We thought that's what would make it more engaging because everyone will have their own criteria on how they define who the best is.

So you went with "we have no actual criteria" for this? What exactly are you hoping to accomplish by having people vote on something that leaves the rules up to the person voting? 

Edited June 10 by JimmyCinnabon

[scourge165]

15 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

Snyder was better than Steveson by any number of metrics.

 

More NCAA titles, beat better NCAA competition, won more world an Olympic titles while in college, beat objectively better competing at NCAAs multiple years, paved the way for a low-match/ high previous senior level-accolades Hodge, didn't lose his last match, and I'm sure more that I'm not rattling off memory.

That said, Steveson will win their fangirl vote. Thank you for joining my soapbox.

Sorry, but except common sense. 

Is anone really taking Snyder or Stevenson at HWT?

I've been as big a fan of Snyder(sans the girls in the red light district in whatever European city he was Wrestling in on a given weekend) but...this isn't a discussion if Hendrickson doesn't pull off one of the greatest upsets of all time.

If it's not close without the upset, then you're allowing one match to change the outcome.

 

As for the Freestyle and Greco, he came, he saw, he conquered. But you're comparing a 97KG Snyder vs a 125KG Stevenson who can match Snyder's footspeed. 

 

I don't know what you meant to say by "beat objectively better competing at NCAAs multiple years." I think you went through that quickly and missed a word or something. 

[JimmyCinnabon]

2 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

Sorry, but except common sense. 

Is anone really taking Snyder or Stevenson at HWT?

I've been as big a fan of Snyder(sans the girls in the red light district in whatever European city he was Wrestling in on a given weekend) but...this isn't a discussion if Hendrickson doesn't pull off one of the greatest upsets of all time.

If it's not close without the upset, then you're allowing one match to change the outcome.

 

As for the Freestyle and Greco, he came, he saw, he conquered. But you're comparing a 97KG Snyder vs a 125KG Stevenson who can match Snyder's footspeed. 

 

I don't know what you meant to say by "beat objectively better competing at NCAAs multiple years." I think you went through that quickly and missed a word or something. 

Are you telling us to ignore data? Why would we ignore Gable Steveson losing and pretend like it didn't happen?

[OMW]

Does Sr year Steveson beat Sr year Cole Konrad?

And I lean SR year Abas at 125 over Spenser.

133 JO v Eric Guerrero!

141 Streebler

149 Zain

157 Dake

165 JB

174 Askren

184 Ruth

197 Cael

285...

[Jon_Kozak]

10 minutes ago, JimmyCinnabon said:

So you went with "we have no actual criteria" for this? What exactly are you hoping to accomplish by having people vote on something that leaves the rules up to the person voting? 

We're hoping to find out who people think the best wrestlers at each weight are since 2001.

[JimmyCinnabon]

2 minutes ago, Jon_Kozak said:

We're hoping to find out who people think the best wrestlers at each weight are since 2001.

Based on what?!?!?!? Bro come on.

[scourge165]

 

20 minutes ago, Winners Circle said:

Oversight on my part. I overlooked Cael since he started his career in the 90s. Slide Cael in at 197 and remove Nickal.

But still Ruth over Brooks?

 

I'll do mine and it's based on personal preference. Abas could Wrestle today with their scrambling ability where as... given the way Wrestling has changed, I think others would have had more trouble). 

I'm also prioritizing College Wrestling

125-Abas
133-Vito- The way he dominated RBY and Fix, then won a WT, he gets the nod from me.
141-Zain
149-Dake-I'm throwing him in here
157-Nolf's one of the most overlooked Wrestlers. Only really "lost" to Imar, he also came back and beat Imar. 
165-Taylor
174-Starocci- I can see Askren here...I just can't put him over Starocci
184-Brooks
197-Cael
HWT-Stevenson

I might have Varner as my #2 at 197. 
133 others have better careers... but Vito was in a loaded weight and dominant. 

I'm a guy who didn't see the older guys, I just think Wrestling is better than it was 20 years ago by in large and some of the controversial ones, ie, Snyder...I don't know how you don't givve the edge to the guy 40 pounds heavier. 

Starocci and Askren, Askren thrived at getting guys out of position... but Carter was a lot like Pentelton in that he was just so technically sound in every position. 10 matches...I'll guess 6/4 Starocci.

Jordan Burroughs was a stud, but I'm only going off College...and I just have him right behind Nolf and Taylor. Burroughs was competitive with Howe at 165. Howe got down big and then got banged up so we never saw a healthy rematch(though I suppose you could use that as an argument for JB as I think Howe was a stud and actually underrated). 

 

Lee and Abas would be a matchup of styles. I like Abas slick shots, but Lee just worked guys on top. I'm still of the opinion that the best of Lee will come in the next few years, the further his knee injury gets put behind him. 

[Truzzcat]

27 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

 

But still Ruth over Brooks?

 

I'll do mine and it's based on personal preference. Abas could Wrestle today with their scrambling ability where as... given the way Wrestling has changed, I think others would have had more trouble). 

I'm also prioritizing College Wrestling

125-Abas
133-Vito- The way he dominated RBY and Fix, then won a WT, he gets the nod from me.
141-Zain
149-Dake-I'm throwing him in here
157-Nolf's one of the most overlooked Wrestlers. Only really "lost" to Imar, he also came back and beat Imar. 
165-Taylor
174-Starocci- I can see Askren here...I just can't put him over Starocci
184-Brooks
197-Cael
HWT-Stevenson

I might have Varner as my #2 at 197. 
133 others have better careers... but Vito was in a loaded weight and dominant. 

I'm a guy who didn't see the older guys, I just think Wrestling is better than it was 20 years ago by in large and some of the controversial ones, ie, Snyder...I don't know how you don't givve the edge to the guy 40 pounds heavier. 

Starocci and Askren, Askren thrived at getting guys out of position... but Carter was a lot like Pentelton in that he was just so technically sound in every position. 10 matches...I'll guess 6/4 Starocci.

Jordan Burroughs was a stud, but I'm only going off College...and I just have him right behind Nolf and Taylor. Burroughs was competitive with Howe at 165. Howe got down big and then got banged up so we never saw a healthy rematch(though I suppose you could use that as an argument for JB as I think Howe was a stud and actually underrated). 

 

Lee and Abas would be a matchup of styles. I like Abas slick shots, but Lee just worked guys on top. I'm still of the opinion that the best of Lee will come in the next few years, the further his knee injury gets put behind him. 

I think this is a really good list may throw Ringer in there at 165 he was an absolute dog.

[PortaJohn]

47 minutes ago, Jon_Kozak said:

We're hoping to find out who people think the best wrestlers at each weight are since 2001.

Realize it's all for fun and to get people engaged but do you think the public vote is weighted too much?  Other than possibly Cael it's hard to imagine any wrestlers prior to 2010 actually winning the vote

[poorwrestler]

I hope we’re not forgetting one of the most electric, exciting wrestlers of the last 25 years at heavyweight in Tony Nelson?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Winners Circle]

56 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

 

But still Ruth over Brooks?

 

I'll do mine and it's based on personal preference. Abas could Wrestle today with their scrambling ability where as... given the way Wrestling has changed, I think others would have had more trouble). 

I'm also prioritizing College Wrestling

125-Abas
133-Vito- The way he dominated RBY and Fix, then won a WT, he gets the nod from me.
141-Zain
149-Dake-I'm throwing him in here
157-Nolf's one of the most overlooked Wrestlers. Only really "lost" to Imar, he also came back and beat Imar. 
165-Taylor
174-Starocci- I can see Askren here...I just can't put him over Starocci
184-Brooks
197-Cael
HWT-Stevenson

I might have Varner as my #2 at 197. 
133 others have better careers... but Vito was in a loaded weight and dominant. 

I'm a guy who didn't see the older guys, I just think Wrestling is better than it was 20 years ago by in large and some of the controversial ones, ie, Snyder...I don't know how you don't givve the edge to the guy 40 pounds heavier. 

Starocci and Askren, Askren thrived at getting guys out of position... but Carter was a lot like Pentelton in that he was just so technically sound in every position. 10 matches...I'll guess 6/4 Starocci.

Jordan Burroughs was a stud, but I'm only going off College...and I just have him right behind Nolf and Taylor. Burroughs was competitive with Howe at 165. Howe got down big and then got banged up so we never saw a healthy rematch(though I suppose you could use that as an argument for JB as I think Howe was a stud and actually underrated). 

 

Lee and Abas would be a matchup of styles. I like Abas slick shots, but Lee just worked guys on top. I'm still of the opinion that the best of Lee will come in the next few years, the further his knee injury gets put behind him. 

• I think Ruth at his peak beats 184 version of Brooks' peak. Brooks was better at 197. If you remember, Marcus Coleman beat a 184 Brooks. 
• 141 I'm not sure Zain could go here. Yes, he beat Stieber, but he only wrestled one NCAA tournament here and finished 5th. 
• I think a junior year, 157, JB beats Nolf. But I won't fight you on it. 
• I won't argue with you about Starocci over Askren. I could see the argument for both (Askren 2 Hodges vs Starr 4 titles).
• Also, not to nitpick, but you reference a couple times that you're prioritizing college careers, which I did as well. But then you also mentioned that Vito got the nod from you in part because he won a WT. 

Edited June 10 by Winners Circle

[BruceyB]

56 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

125-Abas
133-Vito- The way he dominated RBY and Fix, then won a WT, he gets the nod from me.
141-Zain
149-Dake-I'm throwing him in here
157-Nolf's one of the most overlooked Wrestlers. Only really "lost" to Imar, he also came back and beat Imar. 
165-Taylor
174-Starocci- I can see Askren here...I just can't put him over Starocci
184-Brooks
197-Cael
HWT-Stevenson

I'm going to do my list based on trying to put together the best line-up of an athlete during the year they competed at the weight class. ie: Kyle Dake is not making the team as a FR at 141 over Logan Stieber, and Dake isn't making the team as a SO over SR Retherford. 

125: a healthy Lee - I think it's a toss-up between Abas and Spencer, but with the mat involved, edge Spencer.

133: Vito - I don't think anyone could touch NCAA tournament Vito at 133. The way he dominated Fix in 2023, and then handled 2x defending champ RBY is a legendary run.

141: Stieber

149: Retherford

157: Dake

165: Burroughs

174: Starocci - I'd love to pick Askren, but I think Starocci is too disciplined to start rolling around with Ben.

184: Brooks - I'd pay a lot of money to watch a match between him and Nickal or Ruth though.

197: Sanderson

285: Steveson - in one match, who would you pick to beat a prime Steveson?

[pokemonster]

1 hour ago, BruceyB said:

I'm going to do my list based on trying to put together the best line-up of an athlete during the year they competed at the weight class. ie: Kyle Dake is not making the team as a FR at 141 over Logan Stieber, and Dake isn't making the team as a SO over SR Retherford. 

125: a healthy Lee - I think it's a toss-up between Abas and Spencer, but with the mat involved, edge Spencer.

133: Vito - I don't think anyone could touch NCAA tournament Vito at 133. The way he dominated Fix in 2023, and then handled 2x defending champ RBY is a legendary run.

141: Stieber

149: Retherford

157: Dake

165: Burroughs

174: Starocci - I'd love to pick Askren, but I think Starocci is too disciplined to start rolling around with Ben.

184: Brooks - I'd pay a lot of money to watch a match between him and Nickal or Ruth though.

197: Sanderson

285: Steveson - in one match, who would you pick to beat a prime Steveson?

Pretty solid list. I might take Askren and Ruth though. 

[fishbane]

One point Pyles made on FRL regarding 125 was a perceived difficulty difference in the schedule Abas wrestled at Fresno vs Lee at Iowa.  He didn't really look at it in depth but more took it as a given and I'm not sure that's the case.

Abas was the first wrestler to win 4 CKLV titles.  No one else did it until Logan Stieber.  Spencer Lee's biggest regular season tournament wins are the UNI Open and the Soldier Salute.  The years Lee went to Midlands he either lost or defaulted out.  Abas also wrestled in the All Star classic 2x and the National Duals once.  Iowa has largely opted out of these events during Spencer Lee's tenure.  Abas also famously lost to Eric Guerrero at 133 in a dual, so they were wrestling some top teams in duals too. 

If Abas wrestled more matches and hit big events like CKLV, National Duals, and the NCWA All Star Classic it's probably a wash, no?

[BruceyB]

1 minute ago, pokemonster said:

Pretty solid list. I might take Askren and Ruth though. 

My heart picks them as well.

[Phantom]

15 minutes ago, fishbane said:

One point Pyles made on FRL regarding 125 was a perceived difficulty difference in the schedule Abas wrestled at Fresno vs Lee at Iowa.  He didn't really look at it in depth but more took it as a given and I'm not sure that's the case.

Abas was the first wrestler to win 4 CKLV titles.  No one else did it until Logan Stieber.  Spencer Lee's biggest regular season tournament wins are the UNI Open and the Soldier Salute.  The years Lee went to Midlands he either lost or defaulted out.  Abas also wrestled in the All Star classic 2x and the National Duals once.  Iowa has largely opted out of these events during Spencer Lee's tenure.  Abas also famously lost to Eric Guerrero at 133 in a dual, so they were wrestling some top teams in duals too. 

If Abas wrestled more matches and hit big events like CKLV, National Duals, and the NCWA All Star Classic it's probably a wash, no?

Abas everyday and twice on Sunday..

[okokzach]

125-Abas
133-JO
141-Zain
149-Dake
157-Nolf
165-Taylor
174-Pendleton
184-Brooks
197-Cael
HWT-Hendrickson

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

19 minutes ago, Phantom said:

Abas everyday and twice on Sunday..

Abas HATES that people think Spencer Lee is even in the conversation.

He was on "Wrestling Changed my Life" circa 2023 and was clearly disparaging Lee.

Edited June 10 by Interviewed_at_Weehawken

[BruceyB]

16 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Abas HATES that people think Spencer Lee is even in the conversation.

He was on "Wrestling Changed my Life" circa 2023 and was clearly disparaging Lee.

If you have any idea of the time stamp, I'd love to give it a listen.

[okokzach]

He didn't win the match, but this story about Abas is badass

[Gantry]

100% Abas over Lee

Edited June 10 by Gantry

[fishbane]

Additionally Abas made world teams whilst still in college. He was the rep in 2001 and 2002.  2002 was the year Abas graduated.  The US didn't send a team to Iran in 2001.  At the time I recall Abas wanting defy the boycott and travel on his own to the world champioships.

[BruceyB]

3 minutes ago, fishbane said:

Additionally Abas made world teams whilst still in college. He was the rep in 2001 and 2002.  2002 was the year Abas graduated.  The US didn't send a team to Iran in 2001.  At the time I recall Abas wanting defy the boycott and travel on his own to the world champioships.

To be fair, there is a good chance that Spencer would have been our rep several times during his college career if he didn't have to spend every off-season rehabbing.

[Caveira]

5 hours ago, JimmyCinnabon said:

So you went with "we have no actual criteria" for this? What exactly are you hoping to accomplish by having people vote on something that leaves the rules up to the person voting? 

Clicks.   Flo (any news outlet or any streaming service) wants clicks and traffic.  Ambiguity over recency bias or the list being stacked or not optimal… or whatever …..   Arguing fans gets them clicks ….. and $$$ (in theory)

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

1 hour ago, BruceyB said:

If you have any idea of the time stamp, I'd love to give it a listen.

I just double checked and didn't think it was so bad upon second listen.  I think the first time I listened was on a 12 mile run or something and may have been miserable.

So at about 5:00 he basically says that he can't see Spencer beating him.  OK. I get it.

Then he comes back at like 8:00 and says Rivera took Spencer down 3-4 x in a match, so he pretty much sounded like he knew he'd be able to do the same.  Talks briefly about some of Spencer's close matches and about being thrown by Ramos in the dual.  Critical of Lee's awareness when caught in the position that got him pinned.

It is possible that he mentions him again, but I started skipping through and didn't hear much.  He loves Vito and liked Pat Glory though!