National Duals Invitational Seeding

[scourge165]

7 hours ago, Caveira said:

If you don’t like accurate predictions of the future … you on the wrong internet bud.  

Ya think it was your predictions I was taking issue with there bud? LOL...

[scourge165]

6 hours ago, BruceyB said:

I could be wrong, but I get the feeling that he doesn't want to participate in the event as it is hosted by Oklahoma State and HC David Taylor. Their participation would show them willingly cooperating and supporting the event hosted by turncoat David Taylor.

If this was going to be hosted by PSU, I think Cael would host it, win, and cash the check for $200k. It's stubbornness of wanting to discredit the event his former pupil is hosting by not participating.

There is a reason that they are the only school in D1 wrestling that opted out. People can say it's because Cael only does what helps win in March, but I believe there is more to it than that.

I sincerely doubt that's the reason. He didn't want to participate the first time around...why would that change now that it's earlier in the season?

Also, most coaches are happy for former Wrestlers getting good jobs. They take pride in that. Barring some agreement that Cael was going to step down...AND Cunningham...say Cunningham's kids were done with College and then said they'd turn it over to Taylor, I don't see any reason he'd have to be upset. 

 

I don't think it's as deep as people are making it... he just doesn't want to go to an event like that as it doesn't line up with his schedule and peaking in March...which I think it lame, but I don't have reason to think he's lying. He didn't like it...what, 15 years ago or whenever it was and he doesn't like it now. 

Still think they should go, not debating that. 

It...is silly to have it without them, but... whatever. The one thing, you said go and collect the 200K. I thought it was 1M to the winner. Is it 1M in the total purse?

[BruceyB]

2 hours ago, scourge165 said:

I sincerely doubt that's the reason. He didn't want to participate the first time around...why would that change now that it's earlier in the season?

Also, most coaches are happy for former Wrestlers getting good jobs. They take pride in that. Barring some agreement that Cael was going to step down...AND Cunningham...say Cunningham's kids were done with College and then said they'd turn it over to Taylor, I don't see any reason he'd have to be upset. 

 

I don't think it's as deep as people are making it... he just doesn't want to go to an event like that as it doesn't line up with his schedule and peaking in March...which I think it lame, but I don't have reason to think he's lying. He didn't like it...what, 15 years ago or whenever it was and he doesn't like it now. 

Still think they should go, not debating that. 

It...is silly to have it without them, but... whatever. The one thing, you said go and collect the 200K. I thought it was 1M to the winner. Is it 1M in the total purse?

It's "over 1M in total purse." but I have to disagree. Cael hasn't publicly (to my knowledge) expressed any excitement or support for David Taylor moving on and taking over a rival program. You'd think it would be easy to say "I'm proud of David and excited that one of my first recruits at PSU is going to another program.. it will be a fun rivalry.. etc. etc." But it's seemed like the opposite. He dodges questions about DT and OSU, and just says he's worried about his team. It just furthers the cult mentality that people project upon PSU. David goes to OSU after 15 years in Happy Valley and multiple former/current PSU wrestlers essentially expressed anti-David sentiment. Wrestling in an event in November in no way would effect PSU's ability to peak for March.. the events are 4 months apart. He may believe it's best to avoid hard competition early in the season, but it likely has more to do with seeding than the ability to peak for March.

[Rams93]

First time poster, long time reader on lots of these wrestling forums, and those going back +15 years

always seemed to me that Cael’s lack of interest in national duals came from minny beating them early on in his tenure during the old national duals.  That year they ended up winning the national tournament.

Seemed he wanted more control over winning events and didn’t want to dilute his victory with an upstart dual tournament.  The new regional format of the duals was great and exciting.  Cornell similarly didn’t want it, which was actually to their detriment as koll had great dual teams during the early mid 2010s.  Don’t understand Koll’s motivation but the 2 of them killed it together.

now that Cael is so well established it seems weird and illogical to not embrace a national duals.  It’s way more interesting for the casual fan.  No back story is needed, just one team v the other.  Way better to grow viewership.

For the preservation of the sport the national crown should be given as a dual format and individual crowns at the ncaa tournament.  It’s the format we all grew up with in high school - same in every state.

why this format changes in college wrestling makes no sense.  The high school format solves the problem of a team spending large amounts of nil on 2-3 great wrestlers.  Teams will need to be more balanced.  The team part of the sport will be preserved.

Using the ncaa tournament to crown team champs should have stopped years ago.  It has served to maintain lauds for the handful of really powerful programs who consistently place multiple AAs.  Now, when wrestling is competing among other sports for interest and relevance, for funding and self preservation, this needs to change.  We need more viewers at events and greater interest which can come from a dual team national championship.

kudos to ok st.  However, I do disagree with using the ncaa tournament standings to decide who makes it, as outside of the top 6-8 teams that’s decided by one AA wrestler and where they place.

Would be more appropriate to use the number of wrestlers each team qualified than the performance of one wrestler.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[scourge165]

1 hour ago, BruceyB said:

It's "over 1M in total purse." but I have to disagree. Cael hasn't publicly (to my knowledge) expressed any excitement or support for David Taylor moving on and taking over a rival program. You'd think it would be easy to say "I'm proud of David and excited that one of my first recruits at PSU is going to another program.. it will be a fun rivalry.. etc. etc." But it's seemed like the opposite. He dodges questions about DT and OSU, and just says he's worried about his team. It just furthers the cult mentality that people project upon PSU. David goes to OSU after 15 years in Happy Valley and multiple former/current PSU wrestlers essentially expressed anti-David sentiment. Wrestling in an event in November in no way would effect PSU's ability to peak for March.. the events are 4 months apart. He may believe it's best to avoid hard competition early in the season, but it likely has more to do with seeding than the ability to peak for March.

Ok... well, I don't agree with either. With your take or Penn States. But you have to account for why they chose to not participate 10 years ago as well. 

If it's about bad feelings about David Taylor taking over at Okie St...and I don't know who you're referring to other than maybe Starocci running his mouth(which is hardly new or...indicative of anything) or Nickal maybe. They're the only two guys I could imagine complaining. 

I'd also disagree about PSU protecting seeds or that Wrestling in November has nothing to do with Wrestling in March. I know coaches who have their schedule's and workouts planned week by week throughout the year. 

What I COULD see and what I think PSU...maybe as much as anyone(but Iowa and...well, most programs have done this) is that PSU in particular wants to minimize their competition, their events through the B1G duel season and they use the first half of the year to just figure out their lineup. 

 

But more than anything...they don't seem to care about National Duels anymore now than they did 10 years ago when they were the best team and also...not participating. You think it's a "cult mentality" that people project onto Penn State, but I think you are kinda projecting this onto Penn State. 

 

I think Cael just doesn't think it's worth it for the reasons he's given and that's it. He doen't feel like he has to answer to anyone becaue...well, he really doesn't. He doesn't need to justify his coaching philosophy because it's self explanatory.

So...again, we BOTH believe they should be there, you're just reading much more into why they're not than I am. 

What's your thinking about why Cael declined to go the first opportunity he got at Penn State?

 

I would like to hear him explain when he thinks they should be and how they should be run...as he's articulated whyhe doesn't like them(though vaguely). 

Quote

In 2011, Cael Sanderson, head coach of Penn State wrestling, expressed reservations about participating in the NWCA National Duals. While he acknowledged the importance of supporting the NWCA and the potential benefits of the event, he cited differing philosophies on how best to grow the sport and concerns about the timing and structure of the duals. Sanderson emphasized that his decision was not a rejection of the NWCA but rather a strategic choice based on his vision for the sport's development. He indicated openness to future participation if the event aligned more closely with his team's goals and the broader interests of collegiate wrestling.

I would imagine this would require the NCAA to recognize it as a team duel championship...perhaps after the NCAAs as many State do with duel championships. 

 

I'd really doubt it is more about his first prized recruit and the guy David Taylor called a mentor...spiting the event because his new program was putting it on. That just doesn't feel likely. Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree here...(though I'd be interested in who has taken shots at David Taylor...I don't really stay up to date on the social media snipping). 

[GV4444]

Let's use a little bit of Occam's Razor here, based on his previous view on national duals.   

As a PSU fan, I would love to see them at National Duals.  I would love for them to wrestle in 5 tournaments and 20 duals a year.  That would be great.  Reality is as follows:

The primary goal of the Penn State team is to win the NCAA championship.  The measure of the teams accomplishments will not be how many victories at National Duals, Cliff Keen, or even Big 10 championships.  Everything on their schedule is therefore designed to allow the team to peak at the NCAA championships.  Anything that interferes with that game plan is a negative and won't be acceptable to Cael.

So, despite the fact that the concept of National Duals is a great one for determining the best team in the country, that is not the recognized metric for that designation.   It is still the NCAA championships.  So, Cael is not going to do anything that may be detrimental to that goal.  

Having said that, National Duals are a great idea.  Can't wait to watch.   Wish PSU were there, even if they used all their backups (will the matches count against red shirt limits?).   I also believe it is quite possible that Cael will join the fun in the future if he feels the timing can be incorporated into his run to the national title.

 

[BruceyB]

2 hours ago, GV4444 said:

Let's use a little bit of Occam's Razor here, based on his previous view on national duals.   

As a PSU fan, I would love to see them at National Duals.  I would love for them to wrestle in 5 tournaments and 20 duals a year.  That would be great.  Reality is as follows:

The primary goal of the Penn State team is to win the NCAA championship.  The measure of the teams accomplishments will not be how many victories at National Duals, Cliff Keen, or even Big 10 championships.  Everything on their schedule is therefore designed to allow the team to peak at the NCAA championships.  Anything that interferes with that game plan is a negative and won't be acceptable to Cael.

So, despite the fact that the concept of National Duals is a great one for determining the best team in the country, that is not the recognized metric for that designation.   It is still the NCAA championships.  So, Cael is not going to do anything that may be detrimental to that goal.  

Having said that, National Duals are a great idea.  Can't wait to watch.   Wish PSU were there, even if they used all their backups (will the matches count against red shirt limits?).   I also believe it is quite possible that Cael will join the fun in the future if he feels the timing can be incorporated into his run to the national title.

 

So every coach in D1 wrestling is willing to participate in an event that is detrimental to their teams success in March.. except Cael Sanderson. Wow, PSU is showing everyone the secret to winning NCAAs, and they're all too foolish to follow suit!

Participating in this event would do nothing in any way to hurt PSU's potential in March unless they are truly just trying to refrain from any legitimate competition outside of their B10 schedule. 

How is participating in the All-Star Classic conducive to helping his wrestlers win at the NCAA championships? He certainly hasn't had any issues with his athletes participating in that event which has been held in Rec Hall the past two years.

It's his team and he can certainly do whatever he wants, but I do think that when every other program is willing to participate in an event, and you turn your nose up at it and the $200k prize, it makes you look like a bit of a prick. It would be different if multiple teams were opting out, but when you are the only one stopping this event from being as good as it possibly could be, that's a disservice to the sport. Cael is saying "we're too good for your event, and won't validate it by participating."

[ionel]

2 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

So every coach in D1 wrestling is willing to participate in an event that is detrimental to their teams success in March.. except Cael Sanderson. Wow, PSU is showing everyone the secret to winning NCAAs, and they're all too foolish to follow suit!

Participating in this event would do nothing in any way to hurt PSU's potential in March unless they are truly just trying to refrain from any legitimate competition outside of their B10 schedule. 

How is participating in the All-Star Classic conducive to helping his wrestlers win at the NCAA championships? He certainly hasn't had any issues with his athletes participating in that event which has been held in Rec Hall the past two years.

It's his team and he can certainly do whatever he wants, but I do think that when every other program is willing to participate in an event, and you turn your nose up at it and the $200k prize, it makes you look like a bit of a prick. It would be different if multiple teams were opting out, but when you are the only one stopping this event from being as good as it possibly could be, that's a disservice to the sport. Cael is saying "we're too good for your event, and won't validate it by participating."

It's about what's good for Cael and Penn State period.  Who cares about the sport and fans.  By not attending Penn State can claim it is not a legitimate event.  

[BruceyB]

1 minute ago, ionel said:

It's about what's good for Cael and Penn State period.  Who cares about the sport and fans.  By not attending Penn State can claim it is not a legitimate event.  

Exactly. I would like it if they participated, obviously, but I don't care all that much. It will be a great event regardless. I'm more bothered by the message they are sending by being the only ones in NCAA wrestling that are above this event. The arrogance is more off-putting than not participating. They don't participate in a single quality event outside of their B10 schedule.

[lisa morales]

Cael is concerned about his wrestlers keeping up their studies.  Most are in rigourous majors like kiniselogy, parks & rec, physical education, communications. 

[HokieDave87]

16 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

Exactly. I would like it if they participated, obviously, but I don't care all that much. It will be a great event regardless. I'm more bothered by the message they are sending by being the only ones in NCAA wrestling that are above this event. The arrogance is more off-putting than not participating. They don't participate in a single quality event outside of their B10 schedule.

Even if you don't want to be ramping up your veteran guys this early it's a perfect event to get backups some reps and use one of the 5 dates with your freshman to get multiple quality matches and see how they do in an actual match. If they joined and didn't use their best lineup that makes sense, but there is no justification for not attending at all IMO.

[GV4444]

Quote

So every coach in D1 wrestling is willing to participate in an event that is detrimental to their teams success in March.. except Cael Sanderson.

You are inferring here.  Other coaches may believe the timing of the event isn't detrimental to success in March, or they like the chance for program exposure and a million dollars knowing they aren't winning NCAA's anyway.  Winning national duals may be a bigger deal to other programs, but holds no such value to Cael.

I've felt that, while I love watching Cliff Keen, a grueling tournament like that may be detrimental to performance in March.  

Quote

How is participating in the All-Star Classic conducive to helping his wrestlers win at the NCAA championships?

Unlike 5 matches in a couple of days, ASC is one match at the beginning of the year.   

Quote

but when you are the only one stopping this event from being as good as it possibly could be,

Cael's job isn't to make any event as good as it could be.   PSU absence from any event makes it "less good as possible". Is it somehow not as bad that they don't participate in Cliff Keen because they aren't the only one that doesn't.

Quote

and you turn your nose up at it and the $200k prize, it makes you look like a bit of a prick.

Choosing to stick to your game plan vs. $200k does equal being a prick.   If your favorite team were offered $1 million to fly to India for an exhibition match and fly back the day before NCAA's, your coach is not a prick for turning it down.  

Quote

Cael is saying "we're too good for your event, and won't validate it by participating."

What Cael has said about the event is quite different.   So, if you, like many, believe the sport would be better if PSU didn't dominate, should Cael tank the NCAA's for the good of the sport?   If you asked any coach a hypothetical, "Would you participate in National Duals if it guaranteed a worse result at NCAA's?", I think they would all say no, regardless of the "good for the sport" argument.  So, 16 coaches think it won't hurt their chances and one does.   But most of the 16 have no shot at the podium anyway and one keeps winning doing it his way.

If the dates for next year's National Duals were firmed up right now, I think there is a chance Cael rearranges next years plan in order to participate.  

 

[AnklePicker]

14 minutes ago, GV4444 said:

You are inferring here.  Other coaches may believe the timing of the event isn't detrimental to success in March, or they like the chance for program exposure and a million dollars knowing they aren't winning NCAA's anyway.  Winning national duals may be a bigger deal to other programs, but holds no such value to Cael.

I've felt that, while I love watching Cliff Keen, a grueling tournament like that may be detrimental to performance in March.  

Unlike 5 matches in a couple of days, ASC is one match at the beginning of the year.   

Cael's job isn't to make any event as good as it could be.   PSU absence from any event makes it "less good as possible". Is it somehow not as bad that they don't participate in Cliff Keen because they aren't the only one that doesn't.

Choosing to stick to your game plan vs. $200k does equal being a prick.   If your favorite team were offered $1 million to fly to India for an exhibition match and fly back the day before NCAA's, your coach is not a prick for turning it down.  

What Cael has said about the event is quite different.   So, if you, like many, believe the sport would be better if PSU didn't dominate, should Cael tank the NCAA's for the good of the sport?   If you asked any coach a hypothetical, "Would you participate in National Duals if it guaranteed a worse result at NCAA's?", I think they would all say no, regardless of the "good for the sport" argument.  So, 16 coaches think it won't hurt their chances and one does.   But most of the 16 have no shot at the podium anyway and one keeps winning doing it his way.

If the dates for next year's National Duals were firmed up right now, I think there is a chance Cael rearranges next years plan in order to participate.  

 

Blah blah blah. It’s lame as hell that PSU isn’t going and you know it as well as everyone else.  

[Coastal]

Most schools' wrestlers have July/August/September to heal/recover/train.  A bunch of Penn State wrestlers will be making U20, U23 and World Teams.  They'll use September/October/November to heal/recover/train.

So Penn State sends a JV team?  All that would do is prove to what everyone already knows.  Some of Iowa's starters couldn't even make Penn State's roster with the roster cap.

 

[ionel]

39 minutes ago, GV4444 said:

You are inferring here.

There shalt be no inferring on this here forum.  

40 minutes ago, GV4444 said:

If the dates for next year's National Duals were firmed up right now, I think there is a chance Cael rearranges next years plan in order to participate.  

Me thinks you infer too much. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

2 hours ago, Coastal said:

\

So Penn State sends a JV team?  All that would do is prove to what everyone already knows.  Some of Iowa's starters couldn't even make Penn State's roster with the roster cap.

 

Which Iowa starters would not make PSU's 30 man roster?

[Coastal]

2 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Which Iowa starters would not make PSU's 30 man roster?

Kennedy wouldn't make the roster unless he changed weight as Penn State has Haines, Henkel and Cunningham. 

Same with 133/141  Penn State has Davis, Nagao,(All Americans)  Blaze (top recruit), Ono (world champ), Perry (getting no money) and Cunningham (Coaches kid).  Ayala would but Bailey doesn't bump anyone off the roster.

Whomever starts at 157 doesn't make Penn State's top 30.  Endenne doesn't make it at 197 either though he might make the roster at heavyweight.

[Rassling2]

On 5/23/2025 at 8:56 PM, scourge165 said:

It's really just a weird move to not show up to this if you're PSU. 

Make a million dollars and you get some good early competition and... I don't know, it's just good for the sport. I really don't get why you'd NOT want to do this. 

 

But, this should be cool. Okie State vs Iowa...and then I'll take Ohio State. Iowa vs Ohio State Final this year...I think. 

“it’s just good for the sport”  I couldn’t agree with you more scourge. Great post.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

3 minutes ago, Coastal said:

Kennedy wouldn't make the roster unless he changed weight as Penn State has Haines, Henkel and Cunningham. 

Same with 133/141  Penn State has Davis, Nagao,(All Americans)  Blaze (top recruit), Ono (world champ), Perry (getting no money) and Cunningham (Coaches kid).  Ayala would but Bailey doesn't bump anyone off the roster.

Whomever starts at 157 doesn't make Penn State's top 30.  Endenne doesn't make it at 197 either though he might make the roster at heavyweight.

Totally incorrect.

[Rassling2]

I’m not sure if the powers-that-be read threads in this forum but this is one thread I wish they would. PSU fan here agreeing they should be participating.

[Coastal]

1 hour ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Totally incorrect.

That's an intelligent response.

 

Penn State has more than 20 untouchable wrestlers on the roster that would never be cut.

Lilledahl, Desmond, Davis, Nagao, Ono, Blaze, Perry, Cunningham, Van Ness, Kasak, Duke, Sealey, Mesenbrink, Haines, Henckel, Cunningham, Welsh, Barr, Mirasola, Cochran, Mirasola... are all safe.

[nhs67]

1 hour ago, Coastal said:

That's an intelligent response.

 

Penn State has more than 20 untouchable wrestlers on the roster that would never be cut.

Lilledahl, Desmond, Davis, Nagao, Ono, Blaze, Perry, Cunningham, Van Ness, Kasak, Duke, Sealey, Mesenbrink, Haines, Henckel, Cunningham, Welsh, Barr, Mirasola, Cochran, Mirasola... are all safe.

Third/fourth (Blaze, Ono, Nagao) string and in legal trouble... might not be true...

Edited Tuesday at 08:56 PM by nhs67

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

2 hours ago, Coastal said:

That's an intelligent response.

 

Penn State has more than 20 untouchable wrestlers on the roster that would never be cut.

Lilledahl, Desmond, Davis, Nagao, Ono, Blaze, Perry, Cunningham, Van Ness, Kasak, Duke, Sealey, Mesenbrink, Haines, Henckel, Cunningham, Welsh, Barr, Mirasola, Cochran, Mirasola... are all safe.

LOL GM Coastal.  Yes it was intelligent.

What makes Nagao "untouchable," especially since the last time they were in the same nationals bracket Bailey placed and Nagao was DNP.  Bailey is also younger than Nagao who will be 24.

Davis got a little out of hand.  I wouldn't say that he is necessarily in the staff's good graces, as previously mentioned.

untouchable lol

[bnwtwg]

1 hour ago, nhs67 said:

Third/fourth (Blaze, Ono, Nagao) string and in legal trouble... might not be true...

Imagine being the undefeated B1G champ going into NCAAs as the clear-cut #1 seed your true freshman year, AA'ing your true sophomore year, and being told to leave because you aren't good enough to have a spot on the team. Absolutely crazy depth.

[BruceyB]

10 hours ago, GV4444 said:

You are inferring here.  Other coaches may believe the timing of the event isn't detrimental to success in March, or they like the chance for program exposure and a million dollars knowing they aren't winning NCAA's anyway.  Winning national duals may be a bigger deal to other programs, but holds no such value to Cael.

I've felt that, while I love watching Cliff Keen, a grueling tournament like that may be detrimental to performance in March.  

Unlike 5 matches in a couple of days, ASC is one match at the beginning of the year.   

Cael's job isn't to make any event as good as it could be.   PSU absence from any event makes it "less good as possible". Is it somehow not as bad that they don't participate in Cliff Keen because they aren't the only one that doesn't.

Choosing to stick to your game plan vs. $200k does equal being a prick.   If your favorite team were offered $1 million to fly to India for an exhibition match and fly back the day before NCAA's, your coach is not a prick for turning it down.  

What Cael has said about the event is quite different.   So, if you, like many, believe the sport would be better if PSU didn't dominate, should Cael tank the NCAA's for the good of the sport?   If you asked any coach a hypothetical, "Would you participate in National Duals if it guaranteed a worse result at NCAA's?", I think they would all say no, regardless of the "good for the sport" argument.  So, 16 coaches think it won't hurt their chances and one does.   But most of the 16 have no shot at the podium anyway and one keeps winning doing it his way.

If the dates for next year's National Duals were firmed up right now, I think there is a chance Cael rearranges next years plan in order to participate.  

 

You created so many straw men in this post I'm not going to bother to refute them. But anyone who argues that participating in a four match event FOUR months before NCAAs is going to hurt PSUs performance in March is just grasping for a reason to defend their non-participation. 

And Cliff Keen is grueling? It's 4-5 matches over the course of two days. How soft has our sport become where we think wrestling two or three matches in a day is grueling?

Cael obviously has his reasons for not having his wrestlers face any competition outside of the big10 schedule, and you are right that it's not his job to do what's best for the sport, and he clearly isn't afraid of expressing that right. But the arrogance it exudes and the "we're above everyone else" attitude comes with that choice. Cael is alienating PSU from the rest of college wrestling by not participating in quality out of conference duals, tournaments, or events.