Best 3x NCAA Champ ever…

[AgaveMaria]

Mark Schultz?

A few losses in the mix, but not when it was all on the line. Then add in 3 World Titles.

One reason I put him up is Schultz vs Banach. Mark went up a weight to knock off Ed Banach who was being heralded as a great 4 timer - before he had won his 3rd NCAA title.

From Wikipedia.

Schultz was voted by his peers "College Wrestler of the decade" in the book "The Golden Era of Amateur Wrestling: 1980's" by Reginald Rowe. Schultz attended UCLA and went 18-8 at 150 & 158 lbs his freshman year. In the summer of 1979 Mark and Dave Schultz made the Junior World Team, met Oklahoma Assistant coach Jim Humphrey who convinced them to transfer to Oklahoma University. In August, 1979 Mark and Dave Schultz transferred to the University of Oklahoma & redshirted. During Mark and Dave's redshirt year Dave won every tournament he entered while Mark failed to place at every tournament. Mark was unranked among the top 20 wrestlers in the nation until November 1980 when Schultz defeated #1 ranked Mike DeAnna 8-1 in the finals of the Great Plains Tournament in Lincoln, Nebraska. Schultz went from being unranked one week to ranked 2nd the next week. In the following three years (1981–83) Mark won three NCAA titles. Schultz was the NCAA Champion his sophomore year at 167 lbs. He defeated his Great Plains opponent, Iowa Hawkeye senior Mike DeAnna 10-4 in the 1981 NCAA Finals in Princeton, NJ. Matt Reiss, 1980 NCAA Champion at 167 lbs took 8th at 167 in 1981. Schultz moved up to 177 lbs his junior year where he faced another Iowa Hawkeye in the NCAA finals, two-time NCAA Champion (1980, 1981) Ed Banach.^[8] Schultz had lost to Banach 4 times before 1982. Schultz said Banach was the best conditioned wrestler he ever faced and saw him run a mile in about 5 minutes. A month before the 1982 NCAA's Schultz defeated Banach 10-9 in the Oklahoma vs. Iowa dual meet at Lloyd Noble Arena. The 2 teams ended the dual in a 19-19 tie. In 1982 the 1980 NCAA Champion at 167 lbs, Matt Reiss, moved up weight which meant there were 4 NCAA titles represented at 177 lbs.^[9] Banach was exceptional defeating every opponent except one in the 1980, 1981, and 1982 NCAA's by fall or superior decision. Banach was on track to become the first 4-time NCAA champion in history; however, Schultz won 16-8 in "one of, if not the best, NCAA finals match of all time"^[10] and was named Outstanding Wrestler for the tournament.^[11] In 1983 Schultz set the University of Oklahoma record for most victories (27) in an undefeated season and was voted Oklahoma University Student-Athlete of the year. In the 1983 NCAA's in Oklahoma City, Schultz defeated Duane Goldman 4-2, the 3rd Iowa Hawkeye he faced in the NCAA finals.

[scourge165]

2 hours ago, scourge165 said:

Schultz bumped up and stopped the first 4X Champ. 

@AgaveMaria

Quote

Mark Schultz?

I mentioned him. 

That was just old school when guys didn't start wrestling until HS and impossible to compare these guys to modern Wrestlers. He did have that Gymnastics background, so...that's like a cheat code for Wrestling, but still, to go from a mediocre or even below average varsity Wrestler up until his Sr year. Then a good, not great Wrestler, THEN...State Tournament process and he doesn't lose the rest of the way...for the first, 2nd and 3rd tournament he's won...

Then UCLA...decent again but nothing special. 

 

And then DOMINANT 3 Titles. 

[Eagle26]

Several people picking Nolf and I don’t disagree, but wondering what separates him from Nickal? I liked Nolf better, but hard to see much difference in their stats… I would’ve like to see them split the Hodge their senior year. 

[Husker_Du]

Greg Jones definitely needs consideration. less career losses than most 4xers 

[11986]

The 3 guys Mark Schultz beat for his championships were all 4x AAs, with a total of 4 NCAA titles and 10 finals appearances between them. All from Iowa DeAnna, Banach, Goldman. 

Mark also had a real tough time with a guy he never faced in an NCAA final, Hummel from Iowa State. 

[BarSeries]

If KOT beats Haines.......3x champ beating 3 NCAA champions in the finals?

[bnwtwg]

1 hour ago, Husker_Du said:

Greg Jones definitely needs consideration. less career losses than most 4xers 

The OG blast double. One train wreck of a tournament from being a legend

[Wrestleknownothing]

The rest of the three-timers to make your debate more lively

[Husker_Du]

how many of the 3xers of the 4-year era won their FR year?

how many of the 3xers of the 4-year era didn't win as a SR?

 

[peanut]

7 hours ago, scourge165 said:

-Cael

-Kemp

-Taylor/Askren

-Mark Hall? 

This is impossible. Gable, Snyder and Abas are close for 3X IMO...and others. Schultz bumped up and stopped the first 4X Champ. 

Best two-time champs. Askren, Taylor, Neal and Tommy Rowlands

Best One-Time Champ...can I put Churella in here(Hendricks was SO close to being pinned)...but that's such a looong list. There have been so many great Wrestlers who have come along and been in the toughest weight classes and "only" won one title. 

 

-----

I can't put guys like Gable in there. Guys from that era. It's just too different. Not to say others shouldn't or that Uetake isn't the...best 3X or best ever, I just didn't see them, see video and the style was so different. 

My opinion is that wrestlers today are better than wrestlers from the past in part because technique has evolved (which is in part due to the internet). So it’s apples and oranges where today’s wrestlers have an advantage.

If you could teleport all heavies to today, I think Steveson beats them all without much trouble, except perhaps Neal might give him trouble. 

Edited Wednesday at 02:02 PM by peanut

[peanut]

47 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

The rest of the three-timers to make your debate more lively

Of the three timers who got second once, how many lost their title match on a referee’s decision? Hutton and Kemp and anyone else?

Edited Wednesday at 02:01 PM by peanut

[Husker_Du]

here's the thing about the 'best 3xer' argument. 

i could get behind a ton of them without issue.

but Lee Kemp (if i recall correctly) really didn't 'lose' on the scoreboard.

if memory serves me correct, he won 3 titles and lost one on referee's decision when that was a thing.

literally, the ref's just picked a guy. 

[Wrestleknownothing]

9 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

how many of the 3xers of the 4-year era won their FR year?

how many of the 3xers of the 4-year era didn't win as a SR?

 

Won as freshmen:

25%, 7 of the 28

McIlravy, Banach, Hutton, Rosholt, Cox, Lee, and Jones.

Did not win as seniors:

1

 

[Wrestleknownothing]

21 minutes ago, peanut said:

Of the three timers who got second once, how many lost their title match on a referee’s decision? Hutton and Kemp and anyone else?

 

18 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

here's the thing about the 'best 3xer' argument. 

i could get behind a ton of them without issue.

but Lee Kemp (if i recall correctly) really didn't 'lose' on the scoreboard.

if memory serves me correct, he won 3 titles and lost one on referee's decision when that was a thing.

literally, the ref's just picked a guy. 

I believe those are the only two.

When Hutton lost it was the ref who decided based on "If the match is still tied the Referee shall name the winner, basing his decision on superior wrestling ability and aggressiveness shown"

When Kemp lost it was a jury of three. "A jury of two judges and the Referee shall observe the overtime periods. When there is a tie in points at the end of the overtime, a jury, consisting of two judges and the Referee, shall select the winner by ballot without any consultation and the match shall be awarded to the contestant who has shown superior wrestling ability in the overtime periods. The criteria for determining superior wrestling ability are attempts to secure falls, takedowns, reversals and escapes along with the maintenance of control."

In Kemp's case it was a split decision, 2-1.

It would be interesting to see these two matches and debate the decisions. Interestingly, in both cases it was the wrestler with less remaining eligibility who was awarded the win.

[Gus]

11 hours ago, flyingcement said:

This is why I said "based on my belief of" which is not to say that Fix has not accomplished more.  Fix was never rated that high on the senior level was he?  

Fix legitimately won a senior level silver medal at worlds. 

[BAC]

If you're judging this based on who's the best overall wrestler, including freestyle, there's a credible case to be made for Kyle Snyder and, after this weekend, Gable Steveson.  I don't think there have been any other NCAA wrestlers who were Olympic champions while still in college (and Snyder was a world champ too).

There are guys with better records, and guys who achieved freestyle success after their last NCAA (e.g. Uetake and Kemp).  But Snyder and, soon, Steveson are the 3x'ers we can say were, without any dispute, the best wrestlers in the world at both freestyle and folkstyle at their weights while they were still in the NCAAs, as they'd reached the highest pinnacle in both.

[Wrestleknownothing]

2 minutes ago, BAC said:

If you're judging this based on who's the best overall wrestler, including freestyle, there's a credible case to be made for Kyle Snyder and, after this weekend, Gable Steveson.  I don't think there have been any other NCAA wrestlers who were Olympic champions while still in college (and Snyder was a world champ too).

There are guys with better records, and guys who achieved freestyle success after their last NCAA (e.g. Uetake and Kemp).  But Snyder and, soon, Steveson are the 3x'ers we can say were, without any dispute, the best wrestlers in the world at both freestyle and folkstyle at their weights while they were still in the NCAAs, as they'd reached the highest pinnacle in both.

Uetake won his first Olympic gold between his sophomore and junior years

[BAC]

35 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Uetake won his first Olympic gold between his sophomore and junior years

You're right, I was thinking it was right after is senior year!

[Crotalus]

He may not top the list, but J'den at least needs to be mentioned (other than in WKN's list). Not quite as dominant or dynamic as some of the others, but he won his first as a true freshman and did not take a RS at any point. And he is one of the few to win an Olympic medal while still in college. Only five career losses, one of which was a questionable DQ (in my opinion).

[mspart]

My vote is Mark Schultz.

mspart

[enterdisplayname]

35 minutes ago, Crotalus said:

He may not top the list, but J'den at least needs to be mentioned (other than in WKN's list). Not quite as dominant or dynamic as some of the others, but he won his first as a true freshman and did not take a RS at any point. And he is one of the few to win an Olympic medal while still in college. Only five career losses, one of which was a questionable DQ (in my opinion).

his match at the trials vs David Taylor will forever leave a bad taste in my mouth with j'den

[jchapman]

2 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

 

I believe those are the only two.

When Hutton lost it was the ref who decided based on "If the match is still tied the Referee shall name the winner, basing his decision on superior wrestling ability and aggressiveness shown"

When Kemp lost it was a jury of three. "A jury of two judges and the Referee shall observe the overtime periods. When there is a tie in points at the end of the overtime, a jury, consisting of two judges and the Referee, shall select the winner by ballot without any consultation and the match shall be awarded to the contestant who has shown superior wrestling ability in the overtime periods. The criteria for determining superior wrestling ability are attempts to secure falls, takedowns, reversals and escapes along with the maintenance of control."

In Kemp's case it was a split decision, 2-1.

It would be interesting to see these two matches and debate the decisions. Interestingly, in both cases it was the wrestler with less remaining eligibility who was awarded the win.

Kemp scored the only takedown in the match and Yagla scored a reversal.  It's been a while since i Watched it, i don't recall any real close nearfall situations.

One escape each in Hutton's match.  I've never seen that one.

Edited Wednesday at 04:59 PM by jchapman

[Crotalus]

his match at the trials vs David Taylor will forever leave a bad taste in my mouth with j'den

DT trying to break his knee in frustration leaves a bad taste in your mouth with J'den? OK, dude.

[enterdisplayname]

17 minutes ago, Crotalus said:

2 hours ago, enterdisplayname said:

his match at the trials vs David Taylor will forever leave a bad taste in my mouth with j'den

DT trying to break his knee in frustration leaves a bad taste in your mouth with J'den? OK, dude.

Ill take things that never happened for 500, alex. 

[DrPWKnappy]

My vote is for Gray Simons. 1960-1962. From

little Lock Haven.