Should wrestling from your knees be stalling?

[ionel]

16 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

Dropping to one knee in neutral is literally taking a defensive position.  It's text book stalling.  

I think it depends, if you drop to then attack with a low level shot then no be if you do it the entire period/match to prevent a low level shot from your opponent then eventually it is stalling.  

[1032004]

7 minutes ago, swoopdown said:

Ferrari was NOT offensive from his knees.  His TDs resulted after Plott accepted a tie up, they both stood and Plott tried to push forward (mistake) with the tie.  From standing.  There was NO on-the-knee offense. 

Yea there was, at least after the first period.  Regardless, IMO in general it is the lack of action that is stalling, not the fact of being on a knee

[Preceptor]

8 minutes ago, swoopdown said:

Ferrari was NOT offensive from his knees.  His TDs resulted after Plott accepted a tie up, they both stood and Plott tried to push forward (mistake) with the tie.  From standing.  There was NO on-the-knee offense. 

The TD in OT maybe but the TD in the second period was in part created because he dropped to a knee.  Should we make wrist controls stalling in neutral since I am using them to limit your offense?

[peanut]

36 minutes ago, Pinnacle said:

I asked somewhere else. Show me a couple matches where a good wrestler repeatedly goes to one knee and his opponent, also a good wrestler, starts firing off shots at the now on one knee wrestler.

What I am trying to suggest is that this tactic does remove action from the wrestling. 

I think JB has hit reshots from his knees on opponents who were also on their knees. Could be wrong. Also JB is unique.

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

No wrestler ever, actually shoots from his knees.

All shots are initiated with the knees off the ground.  Low, maybe.  On the ground, no.

[MPhillips]

[Gus]

Ayala will wrestled off of one knee and move from the one knee position into his opponent which cause the opponent to put his hands on Drake in a collar tie or inside tie at which point Ayala will get to his slide by. This is one example of using the position to generate offense that I can think of. 

[Hank]

i dont think its a big enough of a problem to require being addressed.  what annoys me more is 

1. when people just push the other wrestlers out of bounds to try to draw stall calls with no intent on offensive action

2. when bottom wrestlers get called for stalling when the top wrestler has legs or is parallel riding and obviously not going for a turn

[SocraTease]

100 percent stalling. It is also extremely difficult for the other wrestler to attack or be offensive, so it slows down the entire match.  It is comparable to a bottom wrestler bellying out or curling up not to get turned.  

Ayala wrestles from his knees sometimes.   Dake has used it in freestyle.  

I think both Ferraris use it because they are taller and their legs are exposed.  I bet both would get taken down a lot more if they weren't allowed to stall.

It can be effective as a stall tactic, but it should be called stalling.  

[1032004]

9 minutes ago, Hank said:

i dont think its a big enough of a problem to require being addressed.  what annoys me more is 

1. when people just push the other wrestlers out of bounds to try to draw stall calls with no intent on offensive action

2. when bottom wrestlers get called for stalling when the top wrestler has legs or is parallel riding and obviously not going for a turn

Agree

[Gene Mills Fan]

Is a being bent over with your elbow on your lead knee and your trail leg straight back stance , holding position never moving forward or shooting, stalling?

Edited 6 hours ago by Gene Mills Fan

[PortaJohn]

12 minutes ago, Hank said:

2. when bottom wrestlers get called for stalling when the top wrestler has legs or is parallel riding and obviously not going for a turn

The board is united on this front.  Extremely annoying

[PortaJohn]

Just now, Gene Mills Fan said:

Is a being bent over with your elbow on your lead knee and your trail leg straight stance back, holding position never moving forward or shooting, stalling?

Yes

[neweruser69]

I will say though, Mcgee was sick from his knees. One of the few where I truly didn't mind it because he had a lot of creative stuff from there. 

[SocraTease]

We could subject this situation to the insightful perspective and understandable response of the innocent person who was lured to the match by a friend and fan of wrestling:

"Hey, let's go get some popcorn, nothing is happening here. It looks really boring":

[Gene Mills Fan]

4 minutes ago, SocraTease said:

We could subject this situation to the insightful perspective and understandable response of the innocent person who was lured to the match by a friend and fan of wrestling:

"Hey, let's go get some popcorn, nothing is happening here. It looks really boring":

circle the one on the left too please!! double stall!!

[SocraTease]

28 minutes ago, Gene Mills Fan said:

Is a being bent over with your elbow on your lead knee and your trail leg straight back stance , holding position never moving forward or shooting, stalling?

This response can be a form of "what-about-ism"?  If the other wrestler is pushing the action, yes, it can be a form of stalling. 

If he is on his knee(s), then, no (not necessarily), because it is an understandable response to the lack of action (aka stalling) initiated by the guy on his knees.  Why should he make an effort or step into a trap?

Freestyle forces the wrestlers to act (i.e. wrestle).  Folkstyle tends to tolerate much more passivity from all positions: neutral, bottom, and top (e.g., parallel rides, two boots in, hooking the leg, etc.)

[Gene Mills Fan]

2 minutes ago, SocraTease said:

This response can be a form of "what-about-ism"?  If the other wrestler is pushing the action, yes, it can be a form of stalling. 

If he is on his knee(s), then, no (not necessarily), because it is an understandable response to the lack of action (aka stalling) initiated by the guy on his knees.  Why should he make an effort or step into a trap?

Freestyle forces the wrestlers to act (i.e. wrestle).  Folkstyle tends to tolerate much more passivity from all positions: neutral, bottom, and top (e.g., parallel rides, two boots in, hooking the leg, etc.)

Whata boutism if they both do it on the whistle? Double stall!! Or does the knee touch mat always lose?

[BarSeries]

 

[TexRef]

2 hours ago, Idaho said:

Robles would like a word. 

Lucas Byrd would also like a word. 

[SocraTease]

Here's the baseball equivalent of wrestling from your knees (pic below). It shrinks your strike zone.

I recall wrestling really short guys.  It was very hard to get to their legs.  (I looked forward to the second and third periods when I could throw in legs, then ride and work for the turn.)   Guys that wrestle from their knees basically cut their height in half and greatly reduce their exposure to being taken down. 

Bernie Truax was another wrestler who was sometimes on his knees in neutral, though I seem to recall him doing it only for a few seconds and then come up for an attack, particularly a sweep single.

 

 

This man was 26 year old, 3 feet, 7 inch tall Eddie Gaedel.  Gaedel was signed by Bill Veeck to a Major League contract of $15,400 ($100 per game), which was the set minimum one could pay a little person performance act, per event. Gaedel was an evenly proportioned dwarf (the term for such a person at the time was “midget”, with dwarfs who were disproportionate in some way being called just dwarfs).

When Veeck began scheming ideas to bolster attendance for his newly acquired, struggling team, the St. Louis Browns, he specifically requested a midget as it was more socially acceptable in that era where dwarfs were unfortunately often relegated only to the “back stage” or freak shows. Further, Veeck felt a midget would look more athletic in the uniform over other dwarfs.

After reviewing several candidates, he settled on Eddie Gaedel, who already was something of a showman, appearing in circuses, rodeos, and the like, and was a member of the American Guild of Variety Artists.  He also held more common jobs like being an errand boy for a newspaper and during WWII he worked as a riveter.  His small size particularly suited him for this job as he was able to crawl into places on the planes that most workers couldn’t fit into.Veeck anticipated that Major League Baseball would be against this signing, so submitted the contract for review late on a Friday, which would result in it getting approved without anyone looking at it too thoroughly.

On Sunday August 19, 1951 before the second game of a double header against the Detroit Tigers, Veeck had Eddie Gaedel pop out of a papier-mâché cake and announce to the crowd of 18,369 that he was the newest member of the St. Louis Browns.  Initially people thought Gaedel being a member of the team was a joke and that he would not actually be playing.

When he stepped up to the plate  to lead off in the second game of the double header that day, to pinch hit for Frank Saucier, at first the umpire, Eddie Hurley, wasn’t going to allow him to bat.  However, Veeck showed the umpire Gaedel’s signed contract and the official roster for the team and he was allowed to lead off.

Veeck had given Gaedel specific orders that he was not to swing.  Further, he was to crouch low in his batting stance to minimize the size of the strike zone (in this crouch, the strike zone was estimated to be just a few inches).  Gaedel did not do the practiced crouch in the actual game.  Rather, he stood up a bit more, so the zone was a little larger than it would have been, but still quite small.

Veeck’s  plan worked and Gaedel managed an easy walk.  With the first two pitches, the opposing pitcher, Bob Cain, did try to throw a strike, but finding this too difficult, he just lobbed the ball for the next two pitches.  Gaedel then took his base, stopping to take a bow twice on his way, and was lifted for a pinch runner, Jim Delsing.  As he walked off the field, Gaedel was given a boisterous standing ovation.

Two days later, American League President Will Harridge voided Gaedel’s contract and he was out of a job.  Further, Harridge officially banned midgets from being able to play in the American League and removed Gaedel’s walk from the official records (it was put back in a year later). After this was announced, Gaedel complained in the media that Harridge had just robbed him of what would have been a lucrative baseball career.

Veeck responded to the banning of midgets from the American League with, “Fine. Let’s establish what a midget is in fact. Is it 3 feet 6 inches? Eddie’s height? Is it 4 feet 6 inches? If it’s 5 feet 6 inches, that’s great. We can get rid of [MVP] Rizzuto.”  Veeck even threatened to request MLB officially rule on whether Phil Rizzuto qualified as a midget or not. (Future Hall of Famer Phil Rizzuto was officially listed at 5 ft, 6 inches, but that’s “baseball inches” which aren’t always too accurate, especially with shorter players whose height numbers tend to get padded.)

Despite the public show, Gaedel hadn’t expected to get to serve out the whole contract and he even waved his normal right to 30 days of severance pay, which would have been about $3000 ($25,000 today).  This had always been more of just a one day gig for Gaedel.  However, had Major League Baseball by some miracle approved the contract, Veeck had planned to have Gaedel used regularly in such situations as when the bases were loaded and a walk would force in a run.

Gaedel ultimately did get a lot more than just $100 out of this performance.  He cashed in on his new-found fame, booking a variety of appearances including TV and radio spots and even playing in an amateur game (striking out in that appearance). All total, it’s estimated he earned over $17,000 ($140,000 today) in the few weeks following his Major League at bat alone. However, it wasn’t all sunshine lollipops for him after this.  Due to the extreme discrimination against little people at the time and that his fame  tended to result in a lot more attention (often negative) than he otherwise might have received, he understandably developed something of a temper with people who made fun of him for his stature.  He also began to drink heavily, which compounded the problem, where he’d become combative even when no offense was intended.

This all came to a head on June 18, 1961.  Gaedel got drunk at a bowling alley and apparently got in verbal confrontations with several people before leaving.  Whether as a result of this or that he simply got mugged, at some point between the bowling alley and arriving home, he was beaten up on his way home.  His mother found him the next morning in bed, dead.  He had been having heart problems and the beating he took exacerbated the issue, resulting in a fatal heart attack.  He was just 36 years old.

[SocraTease]

25 minutes ago, BarSeries said:

 

The Ferraris and Nickal are from the same high school in Texas, and they both possess Texas-sized egos.  Some of us enjoy watching them lose.   The Germans call that Schadenfreude. 

[Wrestleknownothing]

43 minutes ago, BarSeries said:

 

Both are true (ish). While Ferrari was the more active wrestler, by a lot, he also spent a lot of time on his knee. Not 80%, more like 30% of the first period by my count. Some of that was after being in a tie, and some was before. 

I do think it is stalling to drop to a knee outside of a tie. And I do know that Ferrari was far more active than Plott last night.

But stalling is not about the weight of evidence. It is not unusual for the wrestler with a lead to stall, and to get called for it. Happens all the time. No one can reasonably argue that just because you are the most active and take all the shots you are immune from stalling.

Bo Nickal answered a question, just not the question that was asked.

[CHROMEBIRD]

Jordan Oliver? Kyle Dake? John Smith?

[pmilk]

A guy dropping to one knee is stalling or unmanageable? Come on, really? We end up on our knees all the time in wrestling. Weren't you all taught techniques from the feet and knees that allowed you to score by going over, under, or around your opponent? Wrestling an opponent who drops to his knee isn't much different than an opp on his feet...he's just shorter. If you have been trained appropriately, wrestling from the knees is an excellent scoring opportunity. With slight modifications, work into your tie-ups just like you would from on your feet: Snapdowns, sidesnaps, shrugs/shucks,  underhook headwhips, short arm drags, elbow throws, knee trips, etc., are all options..if you know how to set them up and execute...if you don't, then I guess your next best recourse is to claim stalling or something like that. Kinda like when the top man catches an ankle...claim he's stalling if you don't know how to 1)prevent or 2)employ and effective counter and then create a rule that eliminates the down man's responsibility to effectively free himself. Part of any wrestler's game plan should incorporate tactics that make it look like your opponent is stalling. That can be done from feet or on top...harder to do on bottom tho.