NCAA Men’s Freestyle Wrestling

[blueandgold]

3 hours ago, boconnell said:

There is zero chance of this happening.  

There are 6 male FS olympians every 4 years.  The idea that 20-25 recruits a year would skip college wrestling to pursue those spots is absurd.  You are inventing a fairy tale and then arguing what might happen if that fairy tale happens.

Refer back to my original post where I said this would never happen unless there were some scenario that created enough chaos that required attention and later change. This is me pointing out said scenario. Thank you for stating the obvious.

[blueandgold]

2 hours ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

Where was this discussion when JB, DT, Dake, Snyder, Gable, Gilman, Green, Yianni, Cox, etc. were bringing home international medals? Call me a cynic, but I don't think it makes any difference whether the NCAA adopts free or folk.

Imo, the US Men's Soccer team is a pretty good analogue for US MFS. Fans used to say that our soccer team wasn't successful at the Olympics and World Cup because we had insufficient youth development and didn't play an "international style" to compete with Euro & LATAM teams. Well, that's been fixed for a few generations now and US Men's Soccer still doesn't get the results, so now we cast blame at our coaching, the officiating, media coverage, VAR, travel,  everything else. It's easy to imagine the same thing happening to USA Wrestling if we change to freestyle, as if it was some sort of panacea, and don't dominate the medal table. 

Maybe, like soccer, it's just a highly developed sport globally with a lot of parity at the highest level? Re-wrestle the same Olympics brackets and no one would be surprised if we took 0 or 5 golds in MFS.

This discussion was happening then too. Maybe not so much opting out, but all names you listed have advocated for the United States to strictly focus on freestyle for years. I’m merely presenting a nearly impossible scenario where I think the NCAA would adopt freestyle and it would only be because those at the top are affected from a revenue standpoint via a large number of top recruits choosing to focus on freestyle. Beyond that, it would never happen for any other reason.

[ionel]

3 hours ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

Imo, the US Men's Soccer team is a pretty good analogue for US MFS. Fans used to say that our soccer team wasn't successful at the Olympics and World Cup because we had insufficient youth development and didn't play an "international style" to compete with Euro & LATAM teams. Well, that's been fixed for a few generations now and US Men's Soccer still doesn't get the results, so now we cast blame at our coaching, the officiating, media coverage, VAR, travel,  everything else. It's easy to imagine the same thing happening to USA Wrestling if we change to freestyle, as if it was some sort of panacea, and don't dominate the medal table. 

Maybe, like soccer, it's just a highly developed sport globally with a lot of parity at the highest level? Re-wrestle the same Olympics brackets and no one would be surprised if we took 0 or 5 golds in MFS.

And like wrestling the women's soccer team has success and yet the best women prefer to stay home and knit.  How can this be?  Since in the blue world it can't be any of these other factor so maybe its simply coaching.  Here's a simple plan:  mens wrestling and soccer should raise a bunch of money so they can hire away the women's coaches.  That'll fix it, all will be good and blue will be happy. 

[boconnell]

1 hour ago, blueandgold said:

Refer back to my original post where I said this would never happen unless there were some scenario that created enough chaos that required attention and later change. This is me pointing out said scenario. Thank you for stating the obvious.

There is no imaginary scenario that sends the 20-25 best recruits to Freestyle wrestling by choice.  The fact that you were making an imaginary response to an imaginary scenario doesn't make it any more plausible.  

[Fletcher]

On 8/23/2024 at 10:21 AM, blueandgold said:

He might be the best example. Arizona and Colorado state champion who immediately went to freestyle after high school, beat an NCAA Champion in his senior debut at 18 years old and went on to beat several D1 standouts before he won the gold in Beijing 2008. Imagine he went the traditional route, redshirted in 2007, competed as a starter somewhere from 2008-11, and then transitioned to freestyle. He may have never reached the height he did and looking at Beat the Streets 2012, Cejudo in that Olympic year was a far cry from Cejudo in 2008.

"he may have never reached the height he did"

Hardly anybody follows Olympic freestyle. The height of wrestling is winning NCAA titles. From my perspective, Cejudo never did reach the height he could have had he wrestled in college.

[Scouts Honor]

FS lover: we need to switch collegiate wrestling to FS, or have those athletes skip college and go fulltime FS so we do better at the olympics

someone on another thread:  I hope these two greco guys switch to freestyle, so they wrestle in college, b/c greco guys usually don't wrestle in college

 

Greco team: no medals at the olympics for years

[ionel]

We need more 10 to 15 second matches in college.  Will fans demand a refund if 10 of these in a row?

 

[Caveira]

6 hours ago, Scouts Honor said:

FS lover: we need to switch collegiate wrestling to FS, or have those athletes skip college and go fulltime FS so we do better at the olympics

someone on another thread:  I hope these two greco guys switch to freestyle, so they wrestle in college, b/c greco guys usually don't wrestle in college

 

Greco team: no medals at the olympics for years

How did these hs athletes win u17 worlds mostly solely concentrating on folkstyle !!!!    It’s kind of mind boggling.  They beat all these other countries that never even trained in folkstyle.   If we don’t change everything now we will never be competitive.  
 

U17 MFS:

3
3
3 5th Place

WORLD TEAM TITLE!
 

 

Also… fan of the mocco’s…. Co gongrats but 18 second techs should not be a thing in the world finals.   Flippy flippy leg laces aren’t real wrestling.   

 

Edited August 26 by Caveira

[blueandgold]

On 8/24/2024 at 10:01 PM, Fletcher said:

"he may have never reached the height he did"

Hardly anybody follows Olympic freestyle. The height of wrestling is winning NCAA titles. From my perspective, Cejudo never did reach the height he could have had he wrestled in college.

This is a very American take. “The height of wrestling is winning NCAA titles” has to be one of the most ignorant statements I’ve ever heard. Globally, Greco is the most popular style and freestyle is right there with it. How could you say Cejudo has not reached the heights he should’ve when said NCAA champions are trying to reach what he did?!?!?!

[Camel Wrestling Fan]

3 hours ago, Caveira said:

How did these hs athletes win u17 worlds mostly solely concentrating on folkstyle !!!!    It’s kind of mind boggling.  They beat all these other countries that never even trained in folkstyle.   If we don’t change everything now we will never be competitive.  
 

U17 MFS:

3
3
3 5th Place

WORLD TEAM TITLE!
 

 

Also… fan of the mocco’s…. Co gongrats but 18 second techs should not be a thing in the world finals.   Flippy flippy leg laces aren’t real wrestling.   

 

The ankle lace is the ultimate move in wrestling! I pay my hard earned money just hoping I see someone's ankles get crossed and then roll! Roll! Roll! Nothing like seeing a 3-3 match ended like a td and 4 rolls! Rolling rules!!

[Jason Bryant]

The ankle lace is the ultimate move in wrestling! I pay my hard earned money just hoping I see someone's ankles get crossed and then roll! Roll! Roll! Nothing like seeing a 3-3 match ended like a td and 4 rolls! Rolling rules!!

Have you ever executed this technique in your life?

[forkemaz]

27 minutes ago, Jason Bryant said:

Have you ever executed this technique in your life?

Does knowing how to do a leg lace suddenly make the technique awesome to watch? Or do you think plenty of people on this board know how to and have done 100s if not thousands of leg laces and still think its lame as hell?

[scribers]

Easy fix. Limit the leg lace to two turns per takedown 

[D3 for LU]

There WAS a time where you were allowed scoring one time w/ a technique and had to switch over to a different technique to score again.

D3

Edited August 26 by D3 for LU

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

On 8/23/2024 at 1:10 PM, blueandgold said:

Okay, I get what you’re saying, but what I’m saying is that if the Cejudo/Pico route becomes a trend,

What is the Pico route?  He didn't wrestle a high school season for the last years of his career and then went MMA?  

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

1 hour ago, D3 for LU said:

There WAS a time where you were allowed scoring one time w/ a technique and had to switch over to a different technique to score again.

D3

Or get counts with the original turn, for an additional 1 point.  That is why trapped arm became super popular.

[Husker_Du]

23 hours ago, Camel Wrestling Fan said:

The ankle lace is the ultimate move in wrestling! I pay my hard earned money just hoping I see someone's ankles get crossed and then roll! Roll! Roll! Nothing like seeing a 3-3 match ended like a td and 4 rolls! Rolling rules!!

what till you hear about boxing and mma. 

[Camel Wrestling Fan]

17 hours ago, Jason Bryant said:

Have you ever executed this technique in your life?

Yes. But only one roll. I am so old moves couldn't done repeatedly unless the hold was released.

[Jason Bryant]

Does knowing how to do a leg lace suddenly make the technique awesome to watch? Or do you think plenty of people on this board know how to and have done 100s if not thousands of leg laces and still think its lame as hell?

My issue is with how it’s just panned by the anti-freestyle crowd as someone just simply rolling over. It’s a lot more detailed than that. It’s a deadly technique but it’s not like you just roll someone over.

Pinning someone in a cradle in 15 seconds isn’t just rolling someone on to their back just like teching someone in a perfectly executed freestyle wrestling move isn’t just rolling someone over.

I get that quick techs can come off lame - Passing it off as if it’s something so easy is where I’ll push back on it.

[forkemaz]

27 minutes ago, Jason Bryant said:

My issue is with how it’s just panned by the anti-freestyle crowd as someone just simply rolling over. It’s a lot more detailed than that. It’s a deadly technique but it’s not like you just roll someone over.

Pinning someone in a cradle in 15 seconds isn’t just rolling someone on to their back just like teching someone in a perfectly executed freestyle wrestling move isn’t just rolling someone over.

I get that quick techs can come off lame - Passing it off as if it’s something so easy is where I’ll push back on it.

Thats fair. It doesnt make it any more satisfying to watch though. And freestlye fans constantly talk about how the sport needs to be exciting. Leg laces are one of the most common complaints of uneducated viewerrs/new fans when they first see freestyle. Almost no one sees somebody secure a leg lace, roll  through 3 times and thinks it looks awesome or exciting.

Its not exactly intuitve to a combat sports fan why its such a high scoring technique either. It doesnt appear to accomplish anything from a control perspective, which is what is generally thought of in wrestling. I know freestyle is about quick exposures but to the uninitiated or to people who value control a leg lace is just not a satisfying way to get points for a  turn.

[GopherINOHLand]

Fix the rules & make it another spring sport or better yet a summer sport. The dead time from after the College Baseball season to football needs some more options. Mix it in with PLL, all racing forms, and MLB.

Edited August 28 by GopherINOHLand

[Jason Bryant]

Thats fair. It doesnt make it any more satisfying to watch though. And freestlye fans constantly talk about how the sport needs to be exciting. Leg laces are one of the most common complaints of uneducated viewerrs/new fans when they first see freestyle. Almost no one sees somebody secure a leg lace, roll  through 3 times and thinks it looks awesome or exciting.
Its not exactly intuitve to a combat sports fan why its such a high scoring technique either. It doesnt appear to accomplish anything from a control perspective, which is what is generally thought of in wrestling. I know freestyle is about quick exposures but to the uninitiated or to people who value control a leg lace is just not a satisfying way to get points for a  turn.

All valid points from a viewing perspective, but I think the overall flaw is when watching, we tend to watch freestyle wanting it to be folkstyle. Expecting takedowns to be the same, such as a quad pod. Freestyle is about exposing your back, not about control, which is a crucial element to American folkstyle. it’s the same sport, but to use Olympic parlance, a different discipline.

From a viewer perspective, I find riding time to be the biggest detriment to the uneducated sports fan in trying to get them to watch college wrestling. No style is perfect, I just wish more people could appreciate the styles for what they are vs. what they’re not. We don’t do the metric system here but it doesn’t mean it’s worse … imperial is just what we are used to.

[gimpeltf]

A few random thoughts-

Most people that watch freestyle/greco are probably watching the Olympics/Worlds or years ago (70s/80s) when there would be a USA/USSR dual somewhere locally. Most of the time both wrestlers are so good that you won't see much happen. When you watch HS/College (esp HS) most bouts are mismatches so you can get excited. Plus there's the parochial aspect of it in HS/College that creates a bias. Yes, we are biased towards the USA but we didn't generally know our guys that well (current video helps us learn the newer guys). 

I would probably favor intl style returning to some limitation on repetition of moves like guts/laces. Especially in greco where the refs might make an arbitrary decision on who to call passive first which leads to the end of match without giving the other guy a shot at same. 

Over the last several years when step outs were introduced, most people were concerned about it but after working with it most seem to like it. It's not a lot of bouts that only have step outs and it forces people to stay on the mat. 

[Jim L]

8 hours ago, Jason Bryant said:

All valid points from a viewing perspective, but I think the overall flaw is when watching, we tend to watch freestyle wanting it to be folkstyle. Expecting takedowns to be the same, such as a quad pod. Freestyle is about exposing your back, not about control, which is a crucial element to American folkstyle. it’s the same sport, but to use Olympic parlance, a different discipline.

From a viewer perspective, I find riding time to be the biggest detriment to the uneducated sports fan in trying to get them to watch college wrestling. No style is perfect, I just wish more people could appreciate the styles for what they are vs. what they’re not. We don’t do the metric system here but it doesn’t mean it’s worse … imperial is just what we are used to.

I was in general agreement with you until the end. The imperial system is much, much worse than the metric system

[ionel]

2 hours ago, Jim L said:

I was in general agreement with you until the end. The imperial system is much, much worse than the metric system

You can't be serious!  Maybe you need a better understanding of why we have this system.