Should NCAA wrestling adopt all or some freestyle rules?

[Caveira]

49 minutes ago, Caveira said:

2/3 of your list has a folkstyle base.  How do you make the argument that…….     A lifetime of folk does not translate to free.   And list a bunch of them.   Seems like a circular argument.  

And #3 was a sambo dude.   Ha.  

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

I LOVE freestyle. Used to love Greco. 
 

but folkstyle has proven to be the best. 

[Caveira]

Off topic.  What is the bob dole emoji’s meaning ?   I know he’s the “moderator here”.  

[1032004]

2 hours ago, billyhoyle said:

 

Cormier had done folkstyle, but was a much better freestyler than he was at folkstyle (0X NCAA champion, but long time world team member with medals), and had not done folkstyle for about a decade when he transitioned to MMA.

I believe Cormier didn’t start wrestling until high school.  And I hear that guy he lost to in the NCAA finals was pretty good

[Scouts Honor]

6 hours ago, Spladle08 said:

I'm not a big fan, but it's 97% to do with our lack of competitiveness.
Which is 100% related to folkstyle in no way mirroring Greco.

IF we only offered Freestlye/Greco from 5years old through college, 100% we would be the absolute most dominant country in the world in Freestyle and we'd make a ridiculous rise in Greco. 

But there's enough die-hard Folk fans that its not worth arguing. 

But to answer your question. The lack of competitiveness + my personal lack of knowledge of elite technique, keeps  me less interested in the overall product (of Greco).  

i agree that we might be..

but where are we going to find all these coaches, who are so well versed

most coaches barely know folk.

 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

14 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said:

i agree that we might be..

but where are we going to find all these coaches, who are so well versed

most coaches barely know folk.

 

I will say that (after I praised the level of gymnastics coaching in the US in another thread) Zeke Jones once told me “the level of wrestling instruction in this nation is incredible”

But this was also spoken at a camp that had 5+ Olympic medalists as instructors  

 

 

Edited Monday at 03:01 AM by Interviewed_at_Weehawken

[Scouts Honor]

3 hours ago, billyhoyle said:

.

Cejudo barely wrestled any folkstyle. When he was competing in HS tournaments in AZ, he was taking people down and letting them up-basically practicing his freestyle wrestling. 

 

wait, another poster said that folk and free couldn't be done the same

[Caveira]

Tis a good one.   Was accused of being old I think someone called me 60+ (I’m not).  The kids can see tik tok of Facebook shorts.  
 

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/b5ASSYfdJj21NN7N/?mibextid=gYSGZt

Edited Monday at 03:42 AM by Caveira

[MJD]

We shouldn't think of wrestling as a feeder for MMA. MMA is, for 98% of those involved, a financial disaster. (And it's getting more corrupt).The reason American wrestlers do well in MMA is not so much the style but the ethic of wrestling itself (freestyle and folkstyle), which is founded on competition. Everybody who wrestles is preparing to compete. Most who do martial arts are not competing. I did both wrestling and martial arts. Wrestlers, in my experience, had no problem walking into a dojo or martial arts club and completely demolishing folks with all the fancy belts. The reason? Us wrestlers freakin' practiced everyday for hours, went hard the entire time, and competed in long, grueling seasons. If Judo (or any martial art) were in US high schools and they went as hard as wrestlers do, no doubt they would be the main feeder to MMA. 

[scribers]

10 hours ago, Caveira said:

Off topic.  What is the bob dole emoji’s meaning ?   I know he’s the “moderator here”.  

It’s basically a like button by default because the rest of them make no sense.lol

bob specializes in trailer park sociology 

[Wrestleknownothing]

36 minutes ago, scribers said:

It’s basically a like button by default because the rest of them make no sense.lol

bob specializes in trailer park sociology 

Yeah, not a fan of the @BobDole button. And hate the lack of a like. But then we have buttons named after people who do not even post here anymore (perhaps are banned?)?

It really needs to be cleaned up.

[MJD]

7 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Yeah, not a fan of the @BobDole button. And hate the lack of a like. But then we have buttons named after people who do not even post here anymore (perhaps are banned?)?

It really needs to be cleaned up.

Yes, it needs to be cleaned up. No point on having the main button being a career politician. It's a bit annoying to see, honestly, as I don't like his politics. But I wouldn't want to see any button of a politician, even of ones that I support.

[Scouts Honor]

i just hit bob dole, b/c to actually click the others you have to be able to make a straight line to them... and some have accused me of drunk posting... and well maybe... 

[ionel]

On 8/12/2024 at 6:16 AM, Wrestleknownothing said:

Yeah, not a fan of the @BobDole button. And hate the lack of a like. But then we have buttons named after people who do not even post here anymore (perhaps are banned?)?

It really needs to be cleaned up.

The is a combination of the old thanks & .  Why don't folks understand that?

The BobDole is a combination of the old wtf & .

[billyhoyle]

On 8/11/2024 at 6:22 PM, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

I LOVE freestyle. Used to love Greco. 
 

but folkstyle has proven to be the best. 

Watch folkstyle matches from the 80s. Then watch the matches from today. Do you really think the product that is folkstyle is getting better for fans? I think it is getting less exciting with less action.

 

I love folkstyle too-I wrestled through college and only competed in one freestyle tournament in my life. I know the folkstyle rules and techniques better than freestyle  because it’s what I did. But NCAA wrestling is dying right in front of our eyes, and we are just letting it happen. Changes need to be made to encourage the type of action we saw in the 80s/90s. Our athletes are not being set up for success the way they are in swimming and track. Changes need to be made so that they can bring back gold medals. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

46 minutes ago, billyhoyle said:

Watch folkstyle matches from the 80s. Then watch the matches from today. Do you really think the product that is folkstyle is getting better for fans? I think it is getting less exciting with less action.

 

I love folkstyle too-I wrestled through college and only competed in one freestyle tournament in my life. I know the folkstyle rules and techniques better than freestyle  because it’s what I did. But NCAA wrestling is dying right in front of our eyes, and we are just letting it happen. Changes need to be made to encourage the type of action we saw in the 80s/90s. Our athletes are not being set up for success the way they are in swimming and track. Changes need to be made so that they can bring back gold medals. 

Yes, the type of action we saw in the 90s and 90s when I wrestled. 
Bad technique. Bad stances. Bad defense. 
 

I mean, I’m not exactly an offensive juggernaut, but I’ll shoot all day on a guy who is practically standing straight up and has inferior (compared to today) head/hands defense. 

Edited Tuesday at 03:59 PM by Interviewed_at_Weehawken

[billyhoyle]

19 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Yes, the type of action we saw in the 90s and 90s when I wrestled. 
Bad technique. Bad stances. Bad defense. 
 

I mean, I’m not exactly an offensive juggernaut, but I’ll shoot all day on a guy who is practically standing straight up and has inferior (compared to today) head/hands defense. 

I agree-technique has evolved in folkstyle where the risk calculus of a big move is not worth it and favors an extremely boring style of wrestling.

You see this in every sport. Basketball and lacrosse developed strategies that involved holding onto the ball for long periods of time until a shot clock was instituted. Baseball developed defensive shifts until they were outlawed. Football had defensive backs crowd receivers until the PI rules were changed to encourage more offense. Gymnastics changed their rules to encourage more difficult moves (instead of scoring everything out of 10). 
 

As technique evolves to encourage less action, most sports institute rule changes to encourage more action. Wrestling must do the same. 

Edited Tuesday at 04:18 PM by billyhoyle

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

4 minutes ago, billyhoyle said:

I agree-technique has evolved in folkstyle where the risk calculus of a big move is not worth it and favors an extremely boring style of wrestling.

You see this in every sport. Basketball and lacrosse developed strategies that involved holding onto the ball for long periods of time until a shot clock was instituted. Baseball developed defensive shifts until they were outlawed. Football had defensive backs crowd receivers until the PI rules were changed to encourage more offense. Gymnastics changed their rules to encourage more difficult moves (instead of scoring everything out of 10). 
 

As technique evolves to encourage less action, most sports institute rule changes to encourage more action. Wrestling must do the same. 

No more sprawling! Problem solved. 

[CHROMEBIRD]

23 minutes ago, billyhoyle said:

I agree-technique has evolved in folkstyle where the risk calculus of a big move is not worth it and favors an extremely boring style of wrestling.

You see this in every sport. Basketball and lacrosse developed strategies that involved holding onto the ball for long periods of time until a shot clock was instituted. Baseball developed defensive shifts until they were outlawed. Football had defensive backs crowd receivers until the PI rules were changed to encourage more offense. Gymnastics changed their rules to encourage more difficult moves (instead of scoring everything out of 10). 
 

As technique evolves to encourage less action, most sports institute rule changes to encourage more action. Wrestling must do the same. 

Prime example of your former point is Taekwondo. The matches in Paris were an embarrassment compared to what the sport was in the power era. The rules changes over the years and modern scoring technology have turned a once exciting sport into tentative tippy tap foot fencing. 

[forkemaz]

2 hours ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

Prime example of your former point is Taekwondo. The matches in Paris were an embarrassment compared to what the sport was in the power era. The rules changes over the years and modern scoring technology have turned a once exciting sport into tentative tippy tap foot fencing. 

This is the opposite of his point. The rule changes ruined the sport. The same happened to judo. Rule changes are a gamble and we made a few good ones lately with the 3 pt takedown, nuetral danger and the edge wrestling rules.

 

I think NCAA wrestling is in a great spot right now and im not saying it cant be changed but the changes should be well thought out and adress whats missing in folk, namely more turns. If it were up to me id make nearfall worth one point per swipe from 2-6 pts. Nearly pinning your opponent is now worth two takedowns and turns are the highest form of scoring by a larger margin as they should be. Everything else is pretty damn good right now.

[billyhoyle]

27 minutes ago, forkemaz said:

This is the opposite of his point. The rule changes ruined the sport. The same happened to judo. Rule changes are a gamble and we made a few good ones lately with the 3 pt takedown, nuetral danger and the edge wrestling rules.

 

I think NCAA wrestling is in a great spot right now and im not saying it cant be changed but the changes should be well thought out and adress whats missing in folk, namely more turns. If it were up to me id make nearfall worth one point per swipe from 2-6 pts. Nearly pinning your opponent is now worth two takedowns and turns are the highest form of scoring by a larger margin as they should be. Everything else is pretty damn good right now.

If NCAA wrestling is in a good spot, why is viewership and attendance dropping? Why is the product noticeably more boring with less action than it was 30 years ago? Is MLB in a better or worse spot after instituting the pitch clock? How about the 3 point line and shot clock in basketball-good or bad decision? 

Edited Tuesday at 07:24 PM by billyhoyle

[WrestlingRash]

just make a freestyle season as another NCAA season, like indoor and outdoor track. 

[Hank]

I find freestyle boring.  Sorry.  I also don't care about the potential of having folkstyle in college makes our olympic freestyle team worse, because I also don't care about the olympics.  I'm not a boomer either.

If you want to improve our freestyle team, then donate more to training centers or something.

 

[forkemaz]

1 hour ago, billyhoyle said:

If NCAA wrestling is in a good spot, why is viewership and attendance dropping? Why is the product noticeably more boring with less action than it was 30 years ago? Is MLB in a better or worse spot after instituting the pitch clock? How about the 3 point line and shot clock in basketball-good or bad decision? 

Viewership is down for all sports dude. Theres more entertainment options that ever before .sports have been trending down. And the matches are less exciting because there isnt such a skill gap from the elites to the others anymore. Its not as easy to style on someone or hit them with a move they have never seen before. 

Edited Tuesday at 08:37 PM by forkemaz

[billyhoyle]

6 minutes ago, forkemaz said:

Viewership is down for all sports dude. Theres more entertainment options that ever before .sports have been trending down. And the matches are less exciting because there isnt such a skill gap from the elites to the others anymore. It’s not as easy to style on someone or hit them with a move they have never seen before. 

So when more d1 schools drop wrestling, will you keep saying there’s no problem or will you switch to arguing that there’s nothing we could have done?

Viewership is not down for all college sports. Look up numbers for lacrosse, baseball, and women’s basketball. Sports that adapt are thriving-those that don’t are dying.

“Let’s keep doing what we are doing even though people aren’t watching as much anymore.” Do you not care that the sport is becoming less popular?

The skill gap isn’t the problem-the problem is that technique has evolved in a way that leads to decreased action. The solution is to change the incentive structure to favor action.