The Brands'should have trained the team

[billyhoyle]

11 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

I’m not saying there is nothing wrong.  I’m saying the same things were wrong 15 years ago, heck with some of the recent rule changes less may be “wrong” now vs 15 year ago. What are you saying has changed to cause this alleged decline in popularity?

1. There is zero parity and we know who is going to win the team race every year. 

2. We don’t market the athletes. If more were competitive on the Olympic stage, it would help drive viewership of NCAAs.

3. Folkstyle is boring compared to freestyle. Sports evolve. NCAA lacrosse added a shot clock. NCABB added a shot clock and 3 point line. MLB added a pitch clock. Wrestling needs to evolve as well. Folkstyle fans talk about folkstyle incentivizing “control”-well people want to watch ACTION not control.

4. There’s no incentive for teams to compete during the season. So there’s much less build up for NCAAs. I don’t understand how the dual championship still hasn’t officially happened-this would incentivize teams to send their guys out during duals to qualify as a team for it. 
 

I also don’t have all the answers, so I’m sure there are other changes that could help as well. 
 

Adapt or die.

[VakAttack]

2 hours ago, Antitroll2828 said:

You weren’t really wrong , wrestling wise Kyle and JB were close to equals but JB has that special killer instinct that you are either born with or not , and probably because of that killer instinct (the mamba mentality for you BBall fans) he became the most clutch wrestler in USA history. The main difference between JB and these other guys is how many times did JB score in last second to snatch jaws from the defeat while these other guys lose those matches like regular mortals 

I guess.  We may be arguing semantics here, but that killer instinct you talked about is that kind of difference that I didn't really think was there, but it's so key.  And in the end, sports is a results business, fair or not.  Dake is an amazing wrestler, but Burroughs was just a bit different; I know it may seem to some like I'm diminishing him, or joining in the anti-NLWC thing that's popped up, but I'm not!  

[Hammerlock3]

2 hours ago, billyhoyle said:

There is zero parity and we know who is going to win the team race every year.

Folkstyle fans talk about folkstyle incentivizing “control”-well people want to watch ACTION not control.

There’s no incentive for teams to compete during the season. So there’s much less build up for NCAAs. 

I didn't agree with everything in this post, but I edited it down to three ideas that the wrestling community is refusing to confront at its detriment. And I think this is one of the stronger posts I've read on here btw

[MJD]

Divion 1 wrestling is dying, and it's hard to fathom why so many people  can't see what this means. After high school, Div 1 college wrestling is the pinnacle of the sport -- that's it. There's no high level future of the sport internationally or professionally. Some drastic moves need to happen now, or wrestling is gone in 10 years. Most of the coaches in the six figure salary range don't want to talk about this, primarily because their living is set and they don't want to risk anything. So they'll lead us over a cliff and then, in their twilight years say, "Golly gee, I don't know what happened." Yeah right. The switch to freestyle, the main international style, should happen now while the infrastructure is still hanging on. There's no way schools are going to start adding div 1 programs when ADs are noticing more and more that historically the sport is totally dominated by just a few schools, and now just one. Furthermore, ADs know that with folkstyle, the sport ends when school ends. Of course there's no guarantee that a switch to freestyle will save college wrestling, but I think it will. And for heaven’s sake it's worth a try -- and at least give athletes better chance internationally and not waste their prime years on a school sport that's twitching on its last gasp of air.

[1032004]

6 hours ago, billyhoyle said:

1. There is zero parity and we know who is going to win the team race every year. 

2. We don’t market the athletes. If more were competitive on the Olympic stage, it would help drive viewership of NCAAs.

3. Folkstyle is boring compared to freestyle. Sports evolve. NCAA lacrosse added a shot clock. NCABB added a shot clock and 3 point line. MLB added a pitch clock. Wrestling needs to evolve as well. Folkstyle fans talk about folkstyle incentivizing “control”-well people want to watch ACTION not control.

4. There’s no incentive for teams to compete during the season. So there’s much less build up for NCAAs. I don’t understand how the dual championship still hasn’t officially happened-this would incentivize teams to send their guys out during duals to qualify as a team for it. 
 

I also don’t have all the answers, so I’m sure there are other changes that could help as well. 
 

Adapt or die.

1. Did you consider it “parity” when only 3 different teams won titles between 1989 & 2010?

2.  This makes no sense.  As I said earlier the majority of US fans come from the NCAA, and that is where the athletes can become “marquee” to use your word from a different post.  If college and the Olympics were the same style we might get more people to watch  the Olympics, but you have it backwards.

Besides, we ARE competitive on the Olympic stage.   Yes, several guys didn’t do as well as we hoped this year.  But Tokyo was the MFS team’s best medal output since 1996 when there were 10 weights. In 2008 with 7 wrestlers we only had 1 medal and only 1 guy even wrestling for a medal - https://www.themat.com/team-usa/olympic-team-history

3.  Disagree.  As I said earlier, freestyle may be marginally more exciting but not by much, and I think a big reason it is is because of criteria, which IMO would be confusing to casual fans.  And folkstyle IS evolving to incentive action - neutral danger, 4 point nearfall, 3 point takedown, top stalling rules, etc.   There can certainly be more changes made but they’re trying.

4.  Agree that a dual championship would be great.   But there wasn’t a dual championship 10-15 years ago.  And actually, if you look at the biggest duals, most of the teams do send out their top guys.  The main change vs 10-15 years ago is the number of matches scheduled to begin with, with I believe the decline largely coming from tournaments (and that’s also where we see the most “ducking” IMO).  But 1) nothing changed to “incentivize” this other than coaches thinking too many matches might actually be harmful (the guy leading the charge with this of course wrestled 159 matches in college), and I believe part of the reason in recent years was also to allow guys to compete in some freestyle.  And 2) I doubt the fact that Midlands and Scuffle aren’t that good anymore (although CKLV is) has any impact on NCAA viewership.   If anything “NCAA’s being the only thing that matters” might help its viewership.

[Wrestleknownothing]

10 hours ago, billyhoyle said:

 

3. Folkstyle is boring compared to freestyle. Sports evolve. NCAA lacrosse added a shot clock. NCABB added a shot clock and 3 point line. MLB added a pitch clock. Wrestling needs to evolve as well. Folkstyle fans talk about folkstyle incentivizing “control”-well people want to watch ACTION not control.

 

I am starting to come around on the idea of replacing folk with free at all levels, though slowly and I do see some cons.

From an international success perspective, I am beginning to think it would be additive.

[ionel]

9 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I am starting to come around on the idea of replacing folk with free at all levels, though slowly and I do see some cons.

From an international success perspective, I am beginning to think it would be additive.

How do you feel about doing the same in swimming?  No one understands those other strokes and good grief ... what is an IM?  

[PortaJohn]

1 minute ago, ionel said:

How do you feel about doing the same in swimming?  No one understands those other strokes and good grief ... what is an IM?  

IM means in meters.  so 400IM is 400 strokes in meters or the 50 meter IM freestyle is 50 meters of swimming with atleast 50 strokes in those 50 meters.  Its a European thing

[Wrestleknownothing]

1 minute ago, ionel said:

How do you feel about doing the same in swimming?  No one understands those other strokes and good grief ... what is an IM?  

Wrong comparison for swimming. It would be short course vs long course. Of course, to change course would require some bulldozers at this point, but in setting my course for adventure and my mind on a new romance, by matter of course I fully endorse the switch to a full course of long course.

[gimpeltf]

2 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

IM means in meters.  so 400IM is 400 strokes in meters or the 50 meter IM freestyle is 50 meters of swimming with atleast 50 strokes in those 50 meters.  Its a European thing

Huh? Individual Medley

[PortaJohn]

2 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

Huh? Individual Medley

Individual Medley is a definition that the US State Department came up with because Americans couldn't understand the concept of meters

[ionel]

3 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

IM means in meters.  so 400IM is 400 strokes in meters or the 50 meter IM freestyle is 50 meters of swimming with atleast 50 strokes in those 50 meters.  Its a European thing

 

1 minute ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Wrong comparison for swimming. It would be short course vs long course. Of course, to change course would require some bulldozers at this point, but in setting my course for adventure and my mind on a new romance, by matter of course I fully endorse the switch to a full course of long course.

How many strokes in a course and does this have anything to do with equestrian?

 A horse is a horse, of course, of course, And this one'll talk 'til his voice is hoarse.

[Wrestleknownothing]

5 minutes ago, ionel said:

 

How many strokes in a course

Are we still talking about swimming?

[ionel]

2 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Are we still talking about swimming?

Only if its freestyle.

[AgaveMaria]

On 8/10/2024 at 2:42 PM, The Kid said:

Folkstyle would be ok if they added the push out and axed riding time.  

Keep riding time but call fairly stalling when the top guy is not actively working for a pin and the bottom guy is content tl lay there without trying for an escape or reversal. When that happens, award a point to  the wrestler not called for stalling(after one or two warnings?) and put them on their feet.

Push out for a point - as well as one for fleeing the mat. Will help if mats have the colored section next to the edge as the Olympic/freestyle mats have.

On competition. A lot more international meets. Practice is fine but you hone the edge with competition. Send our wrestlers to a lot of international meets.

USA Wrestling lobby hard to make tournaments Double Elimination. The "one and done" makes it difficult for some to justify the cost of traveling. Knowing theyk will have a minimum of two matches and actual placing past the guessing for ranking can only help.

I much prefer folkstyle wrestling, but it needs a few tweaks.

[Wrestleknownothing]

On 8/10/2024 at 3:13 PM, Hammerlock3 said:

this whole cinnabon thing was easier than i thought

A+

[gimpeltf]

22 minutes ago, AgaveMaria said:

On competition. A lot more international meets. Practice is fine but you hone the edge with competition. Send our wrestlers to a lot of international meets.

Study the Europeans in most sports. They don't over-compete. Check what NBA coaches are saying about the European players. They practice and learn fundamentals all the way through- especially early. When Sergei came to Lehigh around 1990 and saw what the local high school teams were doing. He thought it was crazy. We wrestle Tue/Thu/Sat often. So when do you practice to learn? You're either making weight the day before or recovering the day after. I know you didn't say to compete that much but thinking that competing should be high on the list is very American. They go to a few lower level events and then to what they need to qualify for Olympics. They don't usually send all their top guys to the duals trips or World Cup. Remember how bad the seeding was. The top guys (including Americans) didn't go. Seeding isn't for the top guys, it's for the other guys. As an aside- they should have followed the original thoughts of seeding- past World/Olympic placings.