Sadulaev ruled ineligible to compete by UWW panel

[Hammerlock3]

Uguev and Sidakov are already qualified right? does this have something to do with it?

[Hammerlock3]

27 minutes ago, peanut said:

The IOC is founded on Enlightenment values—including individual rights, human rights, and democracy.

The IOC apparently sees invasion-supporting athletes as a threat to everything it stands for, and they have a right to prevent those athletes from using the Olympics as a platform to further their agenda.

 

I'm sympathetic to this argument but its just not a sustainable standard. Even if you had a really rigorous, thoughtful, and ethical group of people in charge (which the IOC ISN'T) the question of "who is a good enough person to compete" is just beyond any sort of arbitration. Its kind of like the best free speech argument. Are some ideas so bad that they shouldn't be said ever? Yes. Is there someone so informed and wise that anyone would delegate the privilege of deciding what they get to hear? No.

[uncle bernard]

1 hour ago, peanut said:

The IOC is founded on Enlightenment values—including individual rights, human rights, and democracy.

The IOC apparently sees invasion-supporting athletes as a threat to everything it stands for, and they have a right to prevent those athletes from using the Olympics as a platform to further their agenda.

 

then why is North Korea allowed to participate? Or any authoritarian country. 

[bnwtwg]

1 hour ago, Hammerlock3 said:

Uguev and Sidakov are already qualified right? does this have something to do with it?

57 and 65 are already qualified for AINal so yes that is correct

[Hammerlock3]

30 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

57 and 65 are already qualified for AINal so yes that is correct

kinda gives the feeling they wanted russia to feel it but didn't have to balls to be consistent about it...half measures are a cowards form of insanity...i just made that up btw

[peanut]

1 hour ago, Hammerlock3 said:

I'm sympathetic to this argument but its just not a sustainable standard. Even if you had a really rigorous, thoughtful, and ethical group of people in charge (which the IOC ISN'T) the question of "who is a good enough person to compete" is just beyond any sort of arbitration. Its kind of like the best free speech argument. Are some ideas so bad that they shouldn't be said ever? Yes. Is there someone so informed and wise that anyone would delegate the privilege of deciding what they get to hear? No.

It's pretty easy.

Which countries are a clear and present danger to the Western-led world order?

There are certainly plenty of countries which reject Western values, but only one country launched an unprovoked and violent attack on a Western ally and democracy. (The attacking country also stands accused of a bunch of war crimes.)

Then once you identify a clear and present danger to the Western-led world order, you decide whether to ban everyone from that country, or simply individuals who clearly support the attack.

Edited April 5 by peanut

[Hammerlock3]

2 minutes ago, peanut said:

It's pretty easy.

Which countries are a clear and present danger to the Western-led world order?

There are certainly plenty of countries which reject Western values, but only one country launched an unprovoked and violent attack on a Western ally and democracy. That same country stands accused of a ton of war crimes.

Then once you identify a clear and present danger to the Western-led world order, you decide whether to ban everyone from that country, or simply individuals who clearly supported the attack on the Western-led world order.

How do you reconcile that with Sidakov and uguev remaining on the team? Is there a differentiation in Sad's support from theirs? As I alluded to above it looks like they wanted to make a statement without showing any courage.

[peanut]

6 minutes ago, Hammerlock3 said:

How do you reconcile that with Sidakov and uguev remaining on the team? Is there a differentiation in Sad's support from theirs? As I alluded to above it looks like they wanted to make a statement without showing any courage.

I have no idea what the standards are, what the evidence was, what statements those athletes may have made, or whether any statements they may have made were consistent with the evidence. But it's easy to imagine a scenario where Athlete A credibly describes being pressured or coerced into appearing at certain events, while Athlete B appears to truly support a certain cause.

[Hammerlock3]

7 minutes ago, peanut said:

I have no idea what the standards are, what the evidence was, what statements those athletes may have made, or whether any statements they may have made were consistent with the evidence. But it's easy to imagine a scenario where Athlete A credibly describes being pressured or coerced into appearing at certain events, while Athlete B appears to truly support a certain cause.

yeah but is there any reason to assume thats what the decision was based on

[Husker_Du]

1 hour ago, Hammerlock3 said:

How do you reconcile that with Sidakov and uguev remaining on the team? Is there a differentiation in Sad's support from theirs? As I alluded to above it looks like they wanted to make a statement without showing any courage.

agree with this.

imo, this forecasts suspensions for Sadikov and Uguev.

i mean, one would think.

if they don't it's nonsensical. but, ya know...the ioc. 

[1032004]

1 hour ago, Hammerlock3 said:

How do you reconcile that with Sidakov and uguev remaining on the team? Is there a differentiation in Sad's support from theirs? As I alluded to above it looks like they wanted to make a statement without showing any courage.

Flo does not list Uguev at least as entered in the tournament (can’t find 74 at first glance), if their weights are already qualified guessing they weren’t traveling with the team?

https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/12399542-what-the-euro-olympic-games-qualifier-means-for-team-usa?utm_medium=socialmedia&utm_source=twitter&utm_term=card.&utm_content=article&utm_campaign=news

[Hammerlock3]

1 minute ago, 1032004 said:

Flo does not list Uguev at least as entered in the tournament (can’t find 74 at first glance), if their weights are already qualified guessing they weren’t traveling with the team?

https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/12399542-what-the-euro-olympic-games-qualifier-means-for-team-usa?utm_medium=socialmedia&utm_source=twitter&utm_term=card.&utm_content=article&utm_campaign=news

i would assume so. Seems like a lot of these guys would compete on one day every 18 months if they could get away with it.

[BAC]

2 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

then why is North Korea allowed to participate? Or any authoritarian country. 

I don't think the test is whether a country is "authoritarian" or not.  Nor is it whether the people of that country have unpopular opinions, or if it is a "Western" country, or any of the other things you're saying.  I don't even buy the argument that it is "political" or "all about politics."

Instead, the basic idea is that in the Olympics -- which is an exhibition of fellowship among nation-states -- you don't get to compete if you try to take another nation-state's land for yourself. 

And that's pretty much it.  Russia decided they wanted to claim for themselves some land that the UN has long recognized belongs to Ukraine.  So poof, just like that, Russia doesn't get to participate. 

And that's OK by me.  It seems to me that "don't steal another country's land" is a pretty easy standard to abide by if you want to participate in the Olympics.  And along with "don't have a government-sanctioned doping program", I think it is pretty clear what you can't do, even if Russia didn't get the memo (on either).

Of course, the reason we've having this conversation at all is that the IOC decided to have an exception for land-grabbing countries, where their independent athletes still get to participate if they aren't supporters of the land-grabbing.

Granted, that answer isn't always clear, but it is super misleading to say "how come we're punishing Russian athletes' opinions but not the opinions of ....[X]."  It isn't punishing opinions.  Russian athletes are already excluded, because Russia is land-grabbing.  They only question is whether individual Russians can get back in, albeit as a neutral athletes, by showing that they had nothing to do with all that land-grabbing.

And if you're Russian, its pretty simple:  don't go banging the drum about how awesome it is to be a land-grabber.  At least not if you want to compete in the Olympics.  

Now, if you want to expand the pool of countries who can't participate in the Olympics to go beyond (1) those with state-sanctioned doping programs and (2) thieves of other countries' UN-recognized lands, have at it, but beware:  it gets real tricky to draw the line in a clear, objective, non-political way.

But as it stands, I think it is actually very simple.  For countries:  don't implement doping programs and don't land-grab.  And if you're an athlete in one of those countries:  don't dope and don't support land-grabbing.  And if you can't do those things, don't come crying to me, since everyone knows you don't take land that isn't yours and you don't take illegal drugs to beat your competitors.  Duh.

[wrestle87]

5 hours ago, peanut said:

The IOC is founded on Enlightenment values—including individual rights, human rights, and democracy.

The IOC apparently sees invasion-supporting athletes as a threat to everything it stands for, and they have a right to prevent those athletes from using the Olympics as a platform to further their agenda.

 

The IOC seems to have strayed just a bit from these motives...

The IOC and the NCAA seem to inhabit the same aisle at this point.

14 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Photo of pro-war rally, standing with soldiers with the "z" on their uniforms.  

For any who are unaware, when you compete at the olympics for a country like, Russia, North Korea, or China, you place yourself under the thumb of the government for the rest of your life.  

The trade off is a potentially more comfortable life for you and your extended family, because everybody in your family tree gets taken care of, but you also are required to stand at attention and do as asked when asked.  It is a tradeoff that these athletes make to improve the lives of their families domestically. 

They also, have no choice in the matter.  Once they realize success, they also immediately forfeit the right to have an opinion of any kind (what little was allowed) other than whatever the government's is at the time.  So, they can either say nothing, or, if they are hoping to get a little more money from the next olympic cycle, they can be more outspokenly patriotic like sidakov.  

But do them the human favor of realizing they have no choice at this point.  Athletic success in these countries perches them at the edge of a very high cliff.  The view is spectacular, but they are also one wrong word away from being pushed off that ledge, their families with them.

So, they have no choice.  They can say nothing, or be supportive of whatever the party line is at the time, but to do anything else is literal jail time if not suicide for them, and their families.  This is not an exaggeration.  

Edited April 5 by wrestle87

[Husker_Du]

very good point

[nhs67]

8 hours ago, Hammerlock3 said:

kinda gives the feeling they wanted russia to feel it but didn't have to balls to be consistent about it...half measures are a cowards form of insanity...i just made that up btw

I want you to make this your signature.

It actually makes sense.

Edited April 5 by nhs67

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

7 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Flo does not list Uguev at least as entered in the tournament (can’t find 74 at first glance), if their weights are already qualified guessing they weren’t traveling with the team?

https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/12399542-what-the-euro-olympic-games-qualifier-means-for-team-usa?utm_medium=socialmedia&utm_source=twitter&utm_term=card.&utm_content=article&utm_campaign=news

 

7 hours ago, Hammerlock3 said:

i would assume so. Seems like a lot of these guys would compete on one day every 18 months if they could get away with it.

This is their Olympic Qualifier.  If your weight is already qualified, you are not allowed to enter.  Kinda like  we had a tournament a little while back with only Nick Lee and Richards entered.

That is why there is no Sidakov or Uguev. (Russia did qualify at 57, correct?)

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

6 hours ago, wrestle87 said:

The IOC seems to have strayed just a bit from these motives...

The IOC and the NCAA seem to inhabit the same aisle at this point.

For any who are unaware, when you compete at the olympics for a country like, Russia, North Korea, or China, you place yourself under the thumb of the government for the rest of your life.  

The trade off is a potentially more comfortable life for you and your extended family, because everybody in your family tree gets taken care of, but you also are required to stand at attention and do as asked when asked.  It is a tradeoff that these athletes make to improve the lives of their families domestically. 

They also, have no choice in the matter.  Once they realize success, they also immediately forfeit the right to have an opinion of any kind (what little was allowed) other than whatever the government's is at the time.  So, they can either say nothing, or, if they are hoping to get a little more money from the next olympic cycle, they can be more outspokenly patriotic like sidakov.  

But do them the human favor of realizing they have no choice at this point.  Athletic success in these countries perches them at the edge of a very high cliff.  The view is spectacular, but they are also one wrong word away from being pushed off that ledge, their families with them.

So, they have no choice.  They can say nothing, or be supportive of whatever the party line is at the time, but to do anything else is literal jail time if not suicide for them, and their families.  This is not an exaggeration.  

Interesting that Saduleev has also been suspended in the past for wearing a t-shirt of Imam Shamil, a 19th century Dagestani leader who resisted Russian imperialism for decades.

[1032004]

40 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

 

This is their Olympic Qualifier.  If your weight is already qualified, you are not allowed to enter.  Kinda like  we had a tournament a little while back with only Nick Lee and Richards entered.

That is why there is no Sidakov or Uguev. (Russia did qualify at 57, correct?)

Yes.   So we can probably expect Uguev and Sidakov to not be allowed to compete in the Olympics then?

[The Kid]

12 hours ago, peanut said:

The IOC is founded on Enlightenment values—including individual rights, human rights, and democracy.

The IOC apparently sees invasion-supporting athletes as a threat to everything it stands for, and they have a right to prevent those athletes from using the Olympics as a platform to further their agenda.

 

Why isn't Israel banned from the Olympics using your high end logic?

 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

10 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Yes.   So we can probably expect Uguev and Sidakov to not be allowed to compete in the Olympics then?

We can expect that they will be told "no Olympics" only to be allowed to compete at the last minute.

[1032004]

8 minutes ago, The Kid said:

Why isn't Israel banned from the Olympics using your high end logic?

 

Because they were attacked first

[Hammerlock3]

4 hours ago, nhs67 said:

I want you to make this your signature.

It actually makes sense.

there you go

[peanut]

3 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Because they were attacked first

Right. Theres a difference in who attacked who first. There’s also a difference in that Israel is a Western ally while Hamas is not. Fair or not, a Western-led political system cannot exist for long if it does not look out for its survival. 

[peanut]

13 hours ago, Hammerlock3 said:

yeah but is there any reason to assume thats what the decision was based on

Right. I don’t know what the decision is based on. But if it’s based on evidence, statements, and credibility, it’s easy to see how Athlete A might be treated differently than Athlete B.