AgaveMaria Posted March 26 Posted March 26 Coach almost breaks down at the press conference. Biggest accomplishment at the Big Dance is once again having ONE guy in the finals. No championship..., again. Yes there are excuses and Tom is holding on to them for all he is worth. Is this enough for him to examine what is actually working and make even small changes? Or will he keep banging his head against the wall, blaming everything else and do the same thing once again? Too many of his guys are not improving on the mat after the first year or two. Getting stagnant and maybe predictable. Not getting better, just getting older and seeming to settle for second tier status. Tom is not Dan Gable but does not seem to be able to push out of that mold and fine tune things to move forward. Even Gable his a stretch of a few years out of Title contention, but figured things out and made small changes and got back on top. Tom is not doing that - not so far. The question is - can he do it? If so..., WILL he do it? ” Never attribute to inspiration that which can be adequately explained by delusion”.
ionel Posted March 26 Posted March 26 1 minute ago, AgaveMaria said: Is this a wake-up for Jimmy ..., finally? ftfy 1 1 .
AgaveMaria Posted March 26 Author Posted March 26 No, I'm not cinnebutt. Not at all. Never, ever. If I bet I pay off. Tom is mired in the past and unless he modifies his approach and maybe some of his behavior Iowa will only get worse. Add in that Iowa can easily write a check to buy out his contract and bring in a new Coach and he has little rope left to hold on to. You don't forget where you came from or what it took to get there but ignoring the reality that what was good 30 years ago just might be improved by checking on and even adopting some of the advancements others are embracing successfully. ” Never attribute to inspiration that which can be adequately explained by delusion”.
Caveira Posted March 26 Posted March 26 11 minutes ago, AgaveMaria said: No, I'm not cinnebutt. Not at all. Never, ever. If I bet I pay off. Tom is mired in the past and unless he modifies his approach and maybe some of his behavior Iowa will only get worse. Add in that Iowa can easily write a check to buy out his contract and bring in a new Coach and he has little rope left to hold on to. You don't forget where you came from or what it took to get there but ignoring the reality that what was good 30 years ago just might be improved by checking on and even adopting some of the advancements others are embracing successfully. This topic isn’t a dead horse. You are an Iowa hater right ? 1 1
Truzzcat Posted March 26 Posted March 26 Im pretty neutral on Iowa not a huge fan but I also do not dislike them. It is pretty hard to argue though that they have not been developing guys to the same degree as a lot of schools especially in certain positions namely scrambling. Their track record at NCAA's for seemingly the past decade has been terrible too. I cannot think of the last guy that really over performed to what was expected and perhaps its not fair to hold them to the same standard as PSU but they seem to be able to do that every year. I don't know if thats a result of beating their guys into the ground so they are too banged up or are just not enjoying it but something definitely has to change.
BIGTENFANBOY Posted March 26 Posted March 26 1 minute ago, Truzzcat said: Im pretty neutral on Iowa not a huge fan but I also do not dislike them. It is pretty hard to argue though that they have not been developing guys to the same degree as a lot of schools especially in certain positions namely scrambling. Their track record at NCAA's for seemingly the past decade has been terrible too. I cannot think of the last guy that really over performed to what was expected and perhaps its not fair to hold them to the same standard as PSU but they seem to be able to do that every year. I don't know if thats a result of beating their guys into the ground so they are too banged up or are just not enjoying it but something definitely has to change. You dont need to compare them to PSU. Use the highlighted metric above against how other schools have done. Other schools have gotten guys to go in crazy runs at NCAAs.
mspart Posted March 26 Posted March 26 Gable used to be able to get more out of his guys than they thought they had. He had a psychological way of looking at his guys and getting them to go where he needed them to go. The Brands are good coaches no doubt, but they are no Gable. Dan brought something intangible to the job and dominated for decades. Cael has done that same thing I think and has dominated. Cael, and maybe his brother and Casey have that intangible quality to get inside their wrestler's heads and get them to where they need to be. For the most part Gables guys overperformed. Caels guys do that now. Brands guys do not. I have said many times I was excited when Zalesky took over OSU years ago. He did nothing with them and finally got canned. Brands is pretty much in that same situation and I think AgaveMaria has a good line on this. Tom and Terry need to figure out how to get to the next level rather than doing the same old thing and getting the same old results. Having one guy in the finals is not doing it. I'm not an Iowa fan but was with Gable. I'd like to see them succeed. I would like to see someone challenge PSU. mspart 1
wrestlingshoe Posted March 27 Posted March 27 If you watch the Spence & Austin Flo film it is easy to see Tom and Terry are the same as they've always been, overly intense, over the top , still on the path of pushing guys beyond... They don't appear to be capable of changing to the new generational needs. Gable's way in the 80s and 90s probably wouldn't work today. Maybe he would be able to switch gears, but the same old Gable Iowa style is not what today's wrestlers are drawn to.
Hammerlock3 Posted March 27 Posted March 27 26 minutes ago, wrestlingshoe said: If you watch the Spence & Austin Flo film it is easy to see Tom and Terry are the same as they've always been, overly intense, over the top , still on the path of pushing guys beyond... They don't appear to be capable of changing to the new generational needs. Gable's way in the 80s and 90s probably wouldn't work today. Maybe he would be able to switch gears, but the same old Gable Iowa style is not what today's wrestlers are drawn to. This post feels like someone trying to throw out every negative Brands trope without actually making a substantive point. 1 "Half measures are a coward's form of insanity."
NM1965 Posted March 27 Posted March 27 2 hours ago, AgaveMaria said: No, I'm not cinnebutt. Not at all. Never, ever. If I bet I pay off. Tom is mired in the past and unless he modifies his approach and maybe some of his behavior Iowa will only get worse. Add in that Iowa can easily write a check to buy out his contract and bring in a new Coach and he has little rope left to hold on to. You don't forget where you came from or what it took to get there but ignoring the reality that what was good 30 years ago just might be improved by checking on and even adopting some of the advancements others are embracing successfully. Iowa is in the same fix that Oklahoma State is in, except Oklahoma State has been in this situation for a decade longer (or more). I think the Brands boys are better coaches than John Smith and his staff, and that's reflected in their dual meets and tournament finishes. But I also know the Brands boys are middle aged guys. They obviously still have drive and passion for the sport, unlike John Smith, but they don't have the street cred that Cael does. Cael was the greatest folkstyle wrestler, arguably, in US history. His teams win NCAA titles yearly with multiple champions. All the top notch kids know that Cael can turn them into champions and want to wrestle for him. Only the "contrary" top guys want to wrestle for somebody other than PSU. I think the only way to replace somebody like Tom Brands is by taking a chance on a guy with huge street cred among wrestlers, somebody like David Taylor or Kyle Dake. Maybe those guys would be terrible coaches (I doubt that, btw), but if David Taylor comes calling with a scholarship offer it would certainly give a kid something to think about. I think Kolat would do wonders at Iowa, btw, but he's just as old school as the Brands in all likelihood.
ionel Posted March 27 Posted March 27 57 minutes ago, Hammerlock3 said: This post feels like someone trying to throw out every negative Brands trope without actually making a substantive point. 2 .
ionel Posted March 27 Posted March 27 (edited) 6 minutes ago, NM1965 said: Iowa is in the same fix that Oklahoma State is in, except Oklahoma State has been in this situation for a decade longer (or more). I think the Brands boys are better coaches than John Smith and his staff, and that's reflected in their dual meets and tournament finishes. But I also know the Brands boys are middle aged guys. They obviously still have drive and passion for the sport, unlike John Smith, but they don't have the street cred that Cael does. Cael was the greatest folkstyle wrestler, arguably, in US history. His teams win NCAA titles yearly with multiple champions. All the top notch kids know that Cael can turn them into champions and want to wrestle for him. Only the "contrary" top guys want to wrestle for somebody other than PSU. I think the only way to replace somebody like Tom Brands is by taking a chance on a guy with huge street cred among wrestlers, somebody like David Taylor or Kyle Dake. Maybe those guys would be terrible coaches (I doubt that, btw), but if David Taylor comes calling with a scholarship offer it would certainly give a kid something to think about. I think Kolat would do wonders at Iowa, btw, but he's just as old school as the Brands in all likelihood. True but Brands are not much younger than Smith. John just acts old and grumpy while Tom & Terry act young and silly. Edited March 27 by ionel .
wrestlingshoe Posted March 27 Posted March 27 59 minutes ago, Hammerlock3 said: This post feels like someone trying to throw out every negative Brands trope without actually making a substantive point. You're reading to much into it. Just making my observation. I'm a fan of good wrestling. I don't have a specific team I root for or against. But it's not hard to see how the brands intensity leads the way.
NM1965 Posted March 27 Posted March 27 Just now, ionel said: True but Brands are much younger than Smith. John just acts old and grumpy while Tom & Terry act young and silly. I don't think the Brands boys can help acting silly! He's not that much younger either, Tom and Terry are 55, and John Smith is 59.
ionel Posted March 27 Posted March 27 1 minute ago, NM1965 said: I don't think the Brands boys can help acting silly! He's not that much younger either, Tom and Terry are 55, and John Smith is 59. Sorry ... are not .. got my edit before Bob's 15 min but not before you quoted. .
Southend Posted March 27 Posted March 27 5 hours ago, AgaveMaria said: Coach almost breaks down at the press conference. Biggest accomplishment at the Big Dance is once again having ONE guy in the finals. No championship..., again. Yes there are excuses and Tom is holding on to them for all he is worth. Is this enough for him to examine what is actually working and make even small changes? Or will he keep banging his head against the wall, blaming everything else and do the same thing once again? Too many of his guys are not improving on the mat after the first year or two. Getting stagnant and maybe predictable. Not getting better, just getting older and seeming to settle for second tier status. Tom is not Dan Gable but does not seem to be able to push out of that mold and fine tune things to move forward. Even Gable his a stretch of a few years out of Title contention, but figured things out and made small changes and got back on top. Tom is not doing that - not so far. The question is - can he do it? If so..., WILL he do it? lol! Just like every other school not Pennsylvania state. What are we all going to do now to keep up? Change coaches is the most logical, right ? Bono, Brands, the list keeps getting longer.
Hammerlock3 Posted March 27 Posted March 27 58 minutes ago, wrestlingshoe said: You're reading to much into it. Just making my observation. I'm a fan of good wrestling. I don't have a specific team I root for or against. But it's not hard to see how the brands intensity leads the way. alright fair enough "Half measures are a coward's form of insanity."
Rassling Posted March 27 Posted March 27 Just like at work, you want to perform your best for a boss you respect. A boss or coach not getting the desired result sometimes needs to look within. 1
Tom formerly Tofurky Posted March 27 Posted March 27 I have to wonder if there are two things at play here: 1. Tom Brands' expectations.. 2. Beth Goetz's (Iowa Director of Athletics) expectations On the one hand, this has to feel like another miserable failure to Tom Brands. Only one guy in the finals, only four All-Americans, finishing "a lowly" fifth in the team standings, one spot/1.5 points behind Iowa State, and 105.5 points out of first... One the other hand, Beth Goetz may see it as a top five team finish (one finals win away from being tied for third), nine National Qualifiers, a National finalist (on ESPN) and four All-Americans. She may also see/understand that Brands' teams have never finished in less than eighth place (2007, his first season as head coach was when they finished there), and in 18 seasons the Hawkeyes have brought the University 14 team trophies, including winning four team titles. Other than Sanderson, there isn't a single other coach in NCAA Division I wrestling with that consistency in the last two decades. All the while, Brands' teams keep generating a TON of press (eyes on the U), continue to sell out dual meets and the donations to the program keep rolling in the door. Men's Wrestling is easily the gold standard of athletics programs on their campus, and rightfully so. If I had to guess (and this is just a guess), Tom Brands' job is probably pretty secure at this point. 2 2
SocraTease Posted March 27 Posted March 27 (edited) Very few like or appreciate Iowa style wrestling anymore. It's unattractive in the 2000s. It's based on some fiction of a tough macho, self-sacrificing man. Marlboro Man. It's low scoring. It's not fan friendly. It is rooted in the Brands' experience at very low weights and doesn't work well in an era scrambling and funk. It doesn't appeal to recruits. It is not enjoyable to watch. The Brands don't get this and they think being stubborn is being resolute and strong. These spark plugs and fire hydrant coaches aren't going to change. And they will only fall behind further while the peanut-crunching crowd gets louder .... in its impatience and disapproval. But the midwest also doesn't like change either and doesn't know what to do. It's more earth than water or fire. It loves authoritarians not innovators. Edited March 27 by SocraTease 4 1 1
NM1965 Posted March 27 Posted March 27 1 hour ago, SocraTease said: Very few like or appreciate Iowa style wrestling anymore. It's unattractive in the 2000s. It's based on some fiction of a tough macho, self-sacrificing man. Marlboro Man. It's low scoring. It's not fan friendly. It is rooted in the Brands' experience at very low weights and doesn't work well in an era scrambling and funk. It doesn't appeal to recruits. It is not enjoyable to watch. The Brands don't get this and they think being stubborn is being resolute and strong. These spark plugs and fire hydrant coaches aren't going to change. And they will only fall behind further while the peanut-crunching crowd gets louder .... in its impatience and disapproval. But the midwest also doesn't like change either and doesn't know what to do. It's more earth than water or fire. It loves authoritarians not innovators. I've never liked the "lock up and push" traditional "Iowa-style". It's always seemed primitive to me. Primitive, but functional. Of course not all their guys are like that.
NM1965 Posted March 27 Posted March 27 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tom formerly Tofurky said: I have to wonder if there are two things at play here: 1. Tom Brands' expectations.. 2. Beth Goetz's (Iowa Director of Athletics) expectations On the one hand, this has to feel like another miserable failure to Tom Brands. Only one guy in the finals, only four All-Americans, finishing "a lowly" fifth in the team standings, one spot/1.5 points behind Iowa State, and 105.5 points out of first... One the other hand, Beth Goetz may see it as a top five team finish (one finals win away from being tied for third), nine National Qualifiers, a National finalist (on ESPN) and four All-Americans. She may also see/understand that Brands' teams have never finished in less than eighth place (2007, his first season as head coach was when they finished there), and in 18 seasons the Hawkeyes have brought the University 14 team trophies, including winning four team titles. Other than Sanderson, there isn't a single other coach in NCAA Division I wrestling with that consistency in the last two decades. All the while, Brands' teams keep generating a TON of press (eyes on the U), continue to sell out dual meets and the donations to the program keep rolling in the door. Men's Wrestling is easily the gold standard of athletics programs on their campus, and rightfully so. If I had to guess (and this is just a guess), Tom Brands' job is probably pretty secure at this point. If I was Tom Brands I'd be very worried about my job, actually. His team is rarely in the running for an NCAA team title, PSU always finishes way ahead. There is no presumable relief on the horizon either, Cael is in a position to dominate NCAA wrestling for as long as he wants. So as far as titles go Iowa has to be realistic and realize they aren't going to win any more NCAA titles for awhile, if ever again. I think the people calling the shots at Iowa realize the situation though and know they are powerless to compete with Cael. However the problem I see for Brands is the disciplinary issues IN ADDITION to the "poor" team performance. You know the old saying, where there's smoke there's a fire. Well the disciplinary issues are showing not just smoke, but a towering inferno. And the recent gambling issues aren't the only stuff, remember the gun incidents? Brands is running a loose, sloppy shop, and I think he might find himself out of a job for it. Edited March 27 by NM1965
jackwebster Posted March 27 Posted March 27 10 hours ago, Truzzcat said: I cannot think of the last guy that really over performed to what was expected Murin got way better. Idk what was expected of him. Brands got better. He was beating guys he shouldnt have. I don't think he was a highly regarded recruit.
Interviewed_at_Weehawken Posted March 27 Posted March 27 2 hours ago, jackwebster said: Murin got way better. Idk what was expected of him. Brands got better. He was beating guys he shouldnt have. I don't think he was a highly regarded recruit. Glazier had a bad tournament, but way better season than expected. Other lesser names such as Hill and Siebricht, though not world beaters, have shown themselves to be significantly improved. None had great NCAA tournaments, though... but either did Davis, Nagao, Hamiti, and many others.
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