Kyle burwikk

[VakAttack]

18 minutes ago, Jason Bryant said:

Let the dude wrestle. This clearly doesn’t come off as a case of someone transferring to avoid discipline (think former Oregon QB and donkey Jeremiah Masoli) and even though they are giving out free years like candy these days, the lifespan of a college wrestling career is pretty limited.

I don’t care WHO is at fault, but let the dude compete. I don’t even care what the “rule” is here. Let the dude compete.

What is the end result? Maybe a dual win and maybe the difference between 4th and 5th in the Big Ten tournament?

Exactly.  The only person suffering in this scenario is Burwick.  If Burwick were allowed to wrestle, nobody would be suffering anything because Wisconsin STILL HAS THERE PREFERRED 133 POUND WRESTLER COMPETING.

[Chestcrusher]

On 12/18/2022 at 10:12 AM, jajensen09 said:

No lies need to be done, as the ncaa says

Clearly you don't know what NPO is. Your choosing to only see one side and sound like a fool. The NCAA has a messed up rule, but Wisconsin is doing nothing illegal.

 

I feel bad for Burwick, but he has most of the blame in this situation imo. He choose to leave without knowing/caring about the rule. He said he was thinking about transferring right after NCAAs, but clearly didn't look into the rules, deadlines, or by his own admission didn't talk to his coaches, or athletic department. Life has consequences as does running from a situation and then expecting everyone to feel bad and fix it for you.

 

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Chestcrusher

[ILLINIWrestlingBlog]

On 12/17/2022 at 10:57 AM, 98lberEating2Lunches said:

This excerpt appears to make it a black and white issue:

"If applicant institution is unable to document that the student-athlete was no longer given an opportunity to participate by his or her previous institution for reasons outside the student-athlete’s control...."

Yes. Black and white but not in the way you contend. Let me explain with a short drama.

SCENE: The camera pans across the Wisconsin Athletic Director's office. It finally rests on the only two people in the entire world who made certain Burwick could not participate as a varsity Wisconsin wrestler this year: Wrestling Coach Chris Bono and Athletic Director Chris McIntosh. That's because Bono recruited a seventh-year Senior AA to replace Burwick, and McIntosh signed off on that recruitment. McIntosh speaks:

MCINTOSH: You can't read, can you?

BONO: I'm not a strong reader.

FIN

To be clear I hate Nebraska just as much as Wisconsin. The entire populations in both states are on my enemies list. 

 

[jajensen09]

9 hours ago, Jason Bryant said:

Let the dude wrestle. This clearly doesn’t come off as a case of someone transferring to avoid discipline (think former Oregon QB and donkey Jeremiah Masoli) and even though they are giving out free years like candy these days, the lifespan of a college wrestling career is pretty limited.

I don’t care WHO is at fault, but let the dude compete. I don’t even care what the “rule” is here. Let the dude compete.

What is the end result? Maybe a dual win and maybe the difference between 4th and 5th in the Big Ten tournament?

2nd or 3rd*

[Ban Basketball]

3 hours ago, ILLINIWrestlingBlog said:

To be clear I hate Nebraska just as much as Wisconsin. The entire populations in both states are on my enemies list. 

 

Yowza! That sounds comforting. 

[jajensen09]

10 hours ago, VakAttack said:

This clinging to technicalities and ignoring of facts while playing with the collegiate athlete's limited asset (his eligibility) is gross.

They recruited a former All-American at his weight class.  The writing is pretty clearly on the wall, and also, that's not the scenario he signed up for.  Under your scenario, the only one who owes any loyalty is the one with less power, the very young adult who only has 5-6 chances to compete at this level.  The wrestling team can do as it likes to improve themselves and their situation, but Burwick can not.

And then you have this guy essentially celebrating the guy losing a year of eligibility.  Sad all around.

Freaking pathetic that there are people parading around saying the kid shouldn't wrestle, just cuz they are a Wisconsin fan. Wrestling/competing life is short, taking a year from a kid is complete bs!

[jchapman]

2 hours ago, jajensen09 said:

Freaking pathetic that there are people parading around saying the kid shouldn't wrestle, just cuz they are a Wisconsin fan. Wrestling/competing life is short, taking a year from a kid is complete bs!

Are you going to admit you were wrong?

[Jason Bryant]

3 hours ago, jajensen09 said:

2nd or 3rd*

It'll be 4th/5th. 

[1032004]

12 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

This situation is exactly the kind of thing that makes everyone hate the NCAA and why it is one of the least sympathetic, most bureaucratic organizations in recent memory. It is like the residents of the Gables of Del Mar / Del Boca Vista. They exist to enforce these insane rules.

And there is a lot of Stockholm Syndrome going on in this thread. Some have pointed out the absurdity of the rule while others have defended the school, the administrators, coaches and the NCAA because of the existence of The Rule. Never mind that the rule is awful and awfully written making it nearly impossible to interpret. The fact that multiple compliance departments can come up with multiple interpretations of a single rule tells you everything you need to know about how well NCAA rules are written. I know what the words Non, Participation, and Opportunity mean, but I have no idea what a Non Participation Opportunity is. The opportunity not to do something? Holy Bureaucratic Double Speak, Batman.

If we go to first principles, Burwick is wrestling for Nebraska right now. He transferred to Nebraska after Wisconsin recruited someone to replace him. His replacement wrestles for Wisconsin, he wrestles for Nebraska. Simple. If there is a rule that prevents that from happening, the fault is in the rule, not the wrestler.

The worst part is that the NCAA knows this better than anyone. They fought successfully for decades to maintain their exemption from anti-trust so that they could enforce rules that clearly violate anti-trust standards. Having recently lost several high profile cases, they have begun to back away from some of their more draconian stances, but for some reason, this is one that stands.

Yeah, so what the heck would even qualify as an eligible scenario here? The coach would basically have to say, “well you can still be on the team but you’re not going to compete?”

It seems the moral of this story is that all wrestlers should have their name in the portal at all times.  That will be fun.

[98lberEating2Lunches]

6 hours ago, ILLINIWrestlingBlog said:

Yes. Black and white....

FIN

To be clear...

Nice piece of fiction.

Actually responsible are 1) NCAA rules-makers governing portal transfer and 2) Kyle Burwick, with an admitted assist from Wisconsin Athletics for not informing its athletes.

Some seem to conveniently forget Kyle was considering leaving Wisconsin before anyone signed off on Taylor Lamont and choose to assume Wisconsin Athletics hadn't been made aware of that after May 1st and before Lamont became a Badger May 24th.

And to be clear, I neither hate Nebraska nor Wisconsin while also not being a fanatic of either.

Edited December 20, 2022 by 98lberEating2Lunches

[98lberEating2Lunches]

13 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I know what the words Non, Participation, and Opportunity mean, but I have no idea what a Non Participation Opportunity is.

It's a "No Participation Opportunity" meaning the athlete's current school is certifying they did not allow an athlete in good standing to participate or practice (beyond the athlete's control).

But I agree with much of your sentiment towards the NCAA as an administrative bureaucracy.

[98lberEating2Lunches]

24 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

what the heck would even qualify as an eligible scenario here?

The coach doesn't want the athlete on the team any more for whatever reason (e.g. perceives the athlete as being a bad influence or distraction and attempts to correct didn't work), so he bans them from practice and doesn't allow them to suit up.

[98lberEating2Lunches]

28 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

seems the moral of this story is that all wrestlers should have their name in the portal at all times

There are risks of getting one's scholarship pulled after they enter the portal.  So maybe it's just better to enter in the defined window that allows one not to lose eligibility when one is serious about transferring to the point they don't care whether theIr current scholarship is pulled.

[WrestlingFan89]

Burwick was never starting at Wiscy once Bono brought Lamont to Madison.  It would hurt his portal power too greatly.

[98lberEating2Lunches]

16 minutes ago, WrestlingFan89 said:

Burwick was never starting at Wiscy once Bono brought Lamont to Madison.  It would hurt his portal power too greatly.

This year and all future years?

Even if Lamont got injured?

Are you a psychic?

[WrestlingFan89]

7 minutes ago, 98lberEating2Lunches said:

This year and all future years?

Even if Lamont got injured?

Are you a psychic?

Judging by Sebastian, Weiler and McNally, he’d have to be substantially injured in order to lose his spot.

[Wrestleknownothing]

52 minutes ago, 98lberEating2Lunches said:

It's a "No Participation Opportunity" meaning the athlete's current school is certifying they did not allow an athlete in good standing to participate or practice (beyond the athlete's control).

But I agree with much of your sentiment towards the NCAA as an administrative bureaucracy.

Thanks for the correction.

Now think about how crazy that is. It treats the athlete like property. They only get an opportunity elsewhere without penalty if their former coach says they have no opportunity there. But, if there is an opportunity, however that is defined by the coach, then all other opportunities are to be denied. You can see where a control freak coach might be able to use that one-sided relationship to punish someone who challenges their control. I am not saying that is what happened here, I am  saying this is the kind of relationship between the NCAA and athletes that causes all manner of hypocrisy.

[98lberEating2Lunches]

8 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

They only get an opportunity elsewhere without penalty if their former coach says they have no opportunity there.

Not quite, while I agree the focus of the rules isn't giving total control to the student athletes.

Student athletes just have to enter the portal in the defined window for their sport or have an appropriate waiver exception.  Then the coach cannot do anything.

Again, the portal window and rules were an attempt to reign in a wild west portal transfers arguably (by coaches and athletic administrators) because a wide-open portal created an administrative burden and a negative affect on the competition.  The fielded competition is the product that is the cash cow of NCAA membership through TV revenues.  So that is what the NCAA sought to protect in a way its member institutions wanted.

Lastly, one can always transfer and compete below the D1 level.

[98lberEating2Lunches]

8 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

if there is an opportunity, however that is defined by the coach,

I understand its defined by the rules referenced on the NPO form for item 1.

"no longer given an opportunity to participate (practice or compete per NCAA Bylaw 14.02.12)"

Voluntary member NCAA institutions agreed to abide by the NCAA bylaws.  That's just how large organizations function.  They agree to the rules ahead of time.

[Wrestleknownothing]

1 hour ago, 98lberEating2Lunches said:

I understand its defined by the rules referenced on the NPO form for item 1.

"no longer given an opportunity to participate (practice or compete per NCAA Bylaw 14.02.12)"

Voluntary member NCAA institutions agreed to abide by the NCAA bylaws.  That's just how large organizations function.  They agree to the rules ahead of time.

My point was broad. The administrator signs, but I am sure they do it only after consulting the coach. So, ultimately it is the coach who makes the decision. And the way that form is written it seems there is a lot of leeway for coaches to define terms.

Now talk about your bureaucracy, NCAA Bylaw 14.02.12 says:

14.02.12 Grade-Point Average. For purposes of calculating a grade-point average for NCAA eligibility (e.g., progress toward degree), a student must achieve a minimum grade-point average based on a maximum of 4.000 grading scale, unless otherwise specified in the legislation. (Adopted: 4/29/04)

[ionel]

7 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

My point was broad. The administrator signs, but I am sure they do it only after consulting the coach. So, ultimately it is the coach who makes the decision. And the way that form is written it seems there is a lot of leeway for coaches to define terms.

Now talk about your bureaucracy, NCAA Bylaw 14.02.12 says:

14.02.12 Grade-Point Average. For purposes of calculating a grade-point average for NCAA eligibility (e.g., progress toward degree), a student must achieve a minimum grade-point average based on a maximum of 4.000 grading scale, unless otherwise specified in the legislation. (Adopted: 4/29/04)

coulda been a D1 wrestler:

[gimpeltf]

8 minutes ago, ionel said:

coulda been a D1 wrestler:

But he was only there 7 years!

[ionel]

15 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

But he was only there 7 years!

Well sure but he worked very hard those 7 years to "achieve a minimum gpa" and if I recall he was near perfect, correct?  So think if he applied that work effort for 7 to 9 years of wrestling. 

[98lberEating2Lunches]

#.02 of NCAA bylaws are definitions.

Bylaw 14 governs "Eligibility."

The definitions of Bylaw 14 (in 14.02) include what constitutes "practice" and "competition" which combined equal "participation."

I would suggest any version of the bylaws that contain "14.02.12" as "Grade-Point Average" are not current.

For example a Google search may returns a version that has

14.02.7 Intercollegiate Competition

14.02.9 Participation in Intercollegiate Athletics (which points to 14.02.7).

[VakAttack]

Again, it's gross to debate semantics as you literally take away a part of the young man's very limited asset: his collegiate wrestling ability.  Once his college wrestling career is over, Chris Bono will still be coaching, and the AD will still be ADing, but this kid will not get another shot to compete in college wrestling.  Saying he has an opportunity to compete in a weight where they literally brought an experienced All American into the weight requires such mental gymnastics, I can't believe we're even doing it.

Kyle Burwick has no opportunity to wrestle for Wisconsin this season.  They preferred Taylor LaMont.  He is now wrestling for him.  And now they are stopping him from competing elsewhere.