My over hyped US wrestler

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

12 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I have expounded on the un-serious way they set up the seeding points.

1. Have all the tournaments in the most difficult to get to time zones for the western hemisphere. If they show, they have two choices:
   1. get there a week early, ala the world championships, to acclimate and optimize performance (and spend loads of money - see point 2);
   2. get there just in time, and feel like crap, and maybe get hurt.
2. Have the points accumulate individually so that a deep country, like the US, will have to spend a crazy amount sending multiple wrestlers, but PR can just send the one that they know is their rep.
3. Make it a perfect attendance award rather than merit, because attendance lines their pockets, not achievement.

It would be nice to get a better system, but this is what we have and we have to deal with it.  David Taylor pretty much knows that he is good enough where ranking tourneys don't matter anymore.  Nick Lee isn't quite at that level, so he needs to take a shot at some  ranking events if he is serious about this Olympic medal thing. 

And I think he did attend at least one and was outperformed by Henderson if I'm not mistaken.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Interviewed_at_Weehawken

[Wrestleknownothing]

13 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

It would be nice to get a better system, but this is what we have and we have to deal with it.  David Taylor pretty much knows that he is good enough where ranking tourneys don't matter anymore.  Nick Lee isn't quite at that level, so he needs to take a shot at some  ranking events if he is serious about this Olympic medal thing. 

And I think he did attend at least one and was outperformed by Henderson if I'm not mistaken.

He was outperformed by Henderson AND McKenna. But he teched Rivera.

[lu1979]

4 hours ago, Gus said:

Here is the list of placers from 2018 - present

2018: Otoguro, Bajrang, Valdes/Chakaev

2019: Rashidov, Niyazbekov, Muszukajev/Bajrang

2021: Shakhiev, Yazdani, Osmonov/Tulga

2022: Amouzad, Yianni, Muszukajev/Bajrang

2023: Muszukajev, Riveria, Mamedov/Tevanyan

 

No repeat champions. Only two wrestlers that have placed multiple times: Muszukajev and Bajrang. 

There is a repeat champion if you include the 2020 Olympics which took place in 2021.  Otoguro won those with Aliev Silver and Rashidov and Barang with bronze.  That tournament is more indicative of the worlds best than the 2021 WC as many of the top guys did not attend that. 5 of the top 6 countries placing at the Olympics sent a different rep to the 2021 WC - the 6th Hungary did not send Musakaev or anyone else.

[Gus]

58 minutes ago, lu1979 said:

There is a repeat champion if you include the 2020 Olympics which took place in 2021.  Otoguro won those with Aliev Silver and Rashidov and Barang with bronze.  That tournament is more indicative of the worlds best than the 2021 WC as many of the top guys did not attend that. 5 of the top 6 countries placing at the Olympics sent a different rep to the 2021 WC - the 6th Hungary did not send Musakaev or anyone else.

Updated with Olympic results added from 2020 (really 2021).

Conclusion: 65 kg is the only weight without a champion winning back-to-back years. 65kg also has the lowest number of wrestlers placing multiple times (4). Of the wrestlers that have placed multiple times, 65kg also has the lowest number of total medals (10) from the multiple time placers. Thus, we can deduce that 65kg has the most parity of all the Olympic weights.

 

57kg

2018: Uguev, Sanayev, Takahashi/Atli

2019: Uguev, Atli, Dahiya/Sanyev

2020: Uguev, Kumar, Sanayev/Gilman

2021: Gilman, Sarlak, Tsiutryn/Lehr

2022: Abakarov, Gilman, Zanabazar/Micic

2023: Micic, Higuchi, Abakarov/Harutyunyan

We have one three-peat champion in Uguev (3 gold). We have 5 others that placed multiple times in Sanayev (1 silver, 2 bronze), Atli (1 silver, 1 bronze), Gilman (1 gold, 1 silver, 1 bronze),  Abakarov ( 1 gold, 1 bronze), Micic (1 gold, 1 bronze).

 

65kg

2018: Otoguro, Bajrang, Valdes/Chakaev

2019: Rashidov, Niyazbekov, Muszukajev/Bajrang

2020: Otoguro, Aliyev, Rashidov/Bajrang

2021: Shakhiev, Yazdani, Osmonov/Tulga

2022: Amouzad, Yianni, Muszukajev/Bajrang

2023: Muszukajev, Riveria, Mamedov/Tevanyan

No repeat champions but Otoguro won two titles (2 gold). 3 other wrestlers that have placed multiple times: Muszukajev (1 gold, 2 bronze), Rashidov (1 gold, 1 bronze) and Bajrang (3 Bronze). 

 

74kg

2018: Sidakov, Kentchadze, Burroughs/Abdurakhmonov

2019: Sidakov, Chamizo, Kaisanov/Burroughs

2020:Sidakov, Kadzimahamedau, Dake/Abdurakhmonov

2021: Dake, Salkazanov, Bizhoev/Eryilmaz

2022: Dake, Salkazanov, Enami/Demirtas

2023: Sidakov, Dake, Takatani/Tsabolov

We had 1 guy three-peat: Sidakov (4 gold) and 1 repeat: Dake (2 gold, 1 silver, 1 Bronze) as champions. Additionally, we had 3 others place multiple times in Burroughs (2 bronze), Abdurakhmonov (2 bronze) and Salkazanov (2 silver). 

 

86kg

2018: DT, Erdin, Friev/Yazdani

2019: Yazdani, Punia, Naifonov/Reichmuth

2020: DT, Yazdani, Naifonov/Amine

2021: Yazdani, DT, Abakarov/Naifonov

2022: DT, Yazdani, Dauletbekov/Makojev

2023: DT, Yazdani, Dauletbekov/Amine

We had 2 guys repeat as champs in Yazdani (2 gold, 2 silver, 1 bronze) and DT (3 gold, 1 silver). 3 others place multiple times in Naifonov (3 bronze), Amine (2 bronze) & Dauletbekov (2 bronze).

 

97kg

2018: Sadulaev, Snyder, Odikadze/Conyedo

2019: Sadulaev, Sharifov, Nurov/Snyder

2020: Sadulaev, Snyder, Salas/Conyedo

2021: Sadulaev, Snyder, Goleij/Zakariiev

2022: Snyder, Tsakulov, Magomedov/Matcharashvili

2023: Tazhudinov, Magodedov, Matcharashvili/Synder

We have one four-peat champion in Sadulaev. 4 others placed multiple times in Snyder (1 gold, 3 silver, 2 bronze), Magomedov (1 silver, 1 bronze), Matcharachvili (2 bronze), Conyedo (2 bronze).

 

125kg

2018: Petriashvili, Deng, Hadi/Gwiazdowski

2019: Petriashvili, Akgul, Deng/Khotsianivski

2020: Steveson, Petriashvili, Zare/Akgul

2021: Zare, Petriashvili, Lkhagvagerel/Akgul

2022: Akgul, Lkhagvagerel, Petriashvili/Zare

2023: Zare, Petriashvili, Akgul/Parris

We have one repeat champ in Petriashvili (2 gold, 3 silver, 1 bronze) and one with multiple titles with years between in Zare (2 gold, 2 bronze). 3 others placed multiple times in Deng (1 silver, 1 bronze), Akgul (1 gold, 1 silver, 3 bronze) & Lkhagvegerel (1 silver, 1 bronze).

[Wrestleknownothing]

16 minutes ago, Gus said:

Updated with Olympic results added from 2020 (really 2021).

Conclusion: 65 kg is the only weight without a champion winning back-to-back years. 65kg also has the lowest number of wrestlers placing multiple times (4). Of the wrestlers that have placed multiple times, 65kg also has the lowest number of total medals (10) from the multiple time placers. Thus, we can deduce that 65kg has the most parity of all the Olympic weights.

 

57kg

2018: Uguev, Sanayev, Takahashi/Atli

2019: Uguev, Atli, Dahiya/Sanyev

2020: Uguev, Kumar, Sanayev/Gilman

2021: Gilman, Sarlak, Tsiutryn/Lehr

2022: Abakarov, Gilman, Zanabazar/Micic

2023: Micic, Higuchi, Abakarov/Harutyunyan

We have one three-peat champion in Uguev (3 gold). We have 5 others that placed multiple times in Sanayev (1 silver, 2 bronze), Atli (1 silver, 1 bronze), Gilman (1 gold, 1 silver, 1 bronze),  Abakarov ( 1 gold, 1 bronze), Micic (1 gold, 1 bronze).

 

65kg

2018: Otoguro, Bajrang, Valdes/Chakaev

2019: Rashidov, Niyazbekov, Muszukajev/Bajrang

2020: Otoguro, Aliyev, Rashidov/Bajrang

2021: Shakhiev, Yazdani, Osmonov/Tulga

2022: Amouzad, Yianni, Muszukajev/Bajrang

2023: Muszukajev, Riveria, Mamedov/Tevanyan

No repeat champions but Otoguro won two titles (2 gold). 3 other wrestlers that have placed multiple times: Muszukajev (1 gold, 2 bronze), Rashidov (1 gold, 1 bronze) and Bajrang (3 Bronze). 

 

74kg

2018: Sidakov, Kentchadze, Burroughs/Abdurakhmonov

2019: Sidakov, Chamizo, Kaisanov/Burroughs

2020:Sidakov, Kadzimahamedau, Dake/Abdurakhmonov

2021: Dake, Salkazanov, Bizhoev/Eryilmaz

2022: Dake, Salkazanov, Enami/Demirtas

2023: Sidakov, Dake, Takatani/Tsabolov

We had 1 guy three-peat: Sidakov (4 gold) and 1 repeat: Dake (2 gold, 1 silver, 1 Bronze) as champions. Additionally, we had 3 others place multiple times in Burroughs (2 bronze), Abdurakhmonov (2 bronze) and Salkazanov (2 silver). 

 

86kg

2018: DT, Erdin, Friev/Yazdani

2019: Yazdani, Punia, Naifonov/Reichmuth

2020: DT, Yazdani, Naifonov/Amine

2021: Yazdani, DT, Abakarov/Naifonov

2022: DT, Yazdani, Dauletbekov/Makojev

2023: DT, Yazdani, Dauletbekov/Amine

We had 2 guys repeat as champs in Yazdani (2 gold, 2 silver, 1 bronze) and DT (3 gold, 1 silver). 3 others place multiple times in Naifonov (3 bronze), Amine (2 bronze) & Dauletbekov (2 bronze).

 

97kg

2018: Sadulaev, Snyder, Odikadze/Conyedo

2019: Sadulaev, Sharifov, Nurov/Snyder

2020: Sadulaev, Snyder, Salas/Conyedo

2021: Sadulaev, Snyder, Goleij/Zakariiev

2022: Snyder, Tsakulov, Magomedov/Matcharashvili

2023: Tazhudinov, Magodedov, Matcharashvili/Synder

We have one four-peat champion in Sadulaev. 4 others placed multiple times in Snyder (1 gold, 3 silver, 2 bronze), Magomedov (1 silver, 1 bronze), Matcharachvili (2 bronze), Conyedo (2 bronze).

 

125kg

2018: Petriashvili, Deng, Hadi/Gwiazdowski

2019: Petriashvili, Akgul, Deng/Khotsianivski

2020: Steveson, Petriashvili, Zare/Akgul

2021: Zare, Petriashvili, Lkhagvagerel/Akgul

2022: Akgul, Lkhagvagerel, Petriashvili/Zare

2023: Zare, Petriashvili, Akgul/Parris

We have one repeat champ in Petriashvili (2 gold, 3 silver, 1 bronze) and one with multiple titles with years between in Zare (2 gold, 2 bronze). 3 others placed multiple times in Deng (1 silver, 1 bronze), Akgul (1 gold, 1 silver, 3 bronze) & Lkhagvegerel (1 silver, 1 bronze).

good stuff

[mspart]

There is quite good parity until the top 3 weights.   Those guys are  monsters.

mspart

[Jim L]

Not sure how a lack of repeat medalists is definite proof that the weight class is harder. Interesting stats but it is just as easy to say it is a softer weight class because there has been any dominant generational talents who can win year after year.

[Le duke]

57 and 65 are just wild, every year. So much parity. That said, if _______ (insert American here) was on Rivera’s side of the bracket this year, Yianni/Lee/McKenna likely make it to a medal match, at the very least.

86 is boring. Two horse race with bracket position determine whether Amine, whichever Russian and some other randoms make it to a Bronze match.


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[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

11 hours ago, Jim L said:

Not sure how a lack of repeat medalists is definite proof that the weight class is harder. Interesting stats but it is just as easy to say it is a softer weight class because there has been any dominant generational talents who can win year after year.

Exactly.  How many of those guys had success in other weights?

We have guys who wouldn't be top 4 in the US medal at this weight.  When this happens at 86, we say "weak weight."

[Gus]

2 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Exactly.  How many of those guys had success in other weights?

We have guys who wouldn't be top 4 in the US medal at this weight.  When this happens at 86, we say "weak weight."

Some guys that have had success at other weights that have competed at 65kg: Zain Retherford (65kg no medals, 70kg 1 gold, 1 silver),  Aliyev (65kg 1 silver, 61kg 3 gold, 57kg 1 bronze), Yazdani (65kg 1 silver, 70kg 1 silver), Niyazbekov (65kg 1 silver, 55kg 1 bronze), Chakaev (65kg 1 bronze, 61kg bronze), Rashidov (65kg 1 gold, 61 kg 2 silver), Chamizo (65kg 1 bronze, 1 70kg gold, 1 74kg silver), James Green (65kg no medals, 70kg 1 silver, 1 bronze), Gadzhiev (65kg 1 silver, 70kg 1 gold, 1 bronze), Iakobishvili (65kg 1 gold, 70kg 3 bronze), Logan Stieber (65kg no medals, 61kg 1 gold).

It is a mixed bag as to whether they performed better or worse at 65kg compared to other weights. That being said, many of athletes that have competed at 65kg have had success at other weights. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

3 minutes ago, Gus said:

Some guys that have had success at other weights that have competed at 65kg: Zain Retherford (65kg no medals, 70kg 1 gold, 1 silver),  Aliyev (65kg 1 silver, 61kg 3 gold, 57kg 1 bronze), Yazdani (65kg 1 silver, 70kg 1 silver), Niyazbekov (65kg 1 silver, 55kg 1 bronze), Chakaev (65kg 1 bronze, 61kg bronze), Rashidov (65kg 1 gold, 61 kg 2 silver), Chamizo (65kg 1 bronze, 1 70kg gold, 1 74kg silver), James Green (65kg no medals, 70kg 1 silver, 1 bronze), Gadzhiev (65kg 1 silver, 70kg 1 gold, 1 bronze), Iakobishvili (65kg 1 gold, 70kg 3 bronze), Logan Stieber (65kg no medals, 61kg 1 gold).

It is a mixed bag as to whether they performed better or worse at 65kg compared to other weights. That being said, many of athletes that have competed at 65kg have had success at other weights. 

Thanks, but somewhat unfair because a number of those wrestlers haven't been able to compete in Worlds at 65.  

[Gus]

20 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Thanks, but somewhat unfair because a number of those wrestlers haven't been able to compete in Worlds at 65.  

I think just James Green was unable to compete at 65kg due to not making the USA team. Stieber and Zain both made a US Team at 65kg. Who else are you talking about?

[Husker_Du]

On 11/7/2023 at 5:07 PM, Jim L said:

Not sure how a lack of repeat medalists is definite proof that the weight class is harder. Interesting stats but it is just as easy to say it is a softer weight class because there has been any dominant generational talents who can win year after year.

i'll tell you how...

because outside of worlds, 65kg guy lose more often. there's simply (and demonstrable) more guys that have the ability to beat the best. that's the definition of 'deeper'.

 

[steamboat_charlie]

On 11/12/2023 at 6:44 AM, Husker_Du said:

i'll tell you how...

because outside of worlds, 65kg guy lose more often. there's simply (and demonstrable) more guys that have the ability to beat the best. that's the definition of 'deeper'.

I think that's the definition of parity, not depth.  

Eventually another Fadzaev will come along and run the weight for half a decade, and it won't mean there's less depth.  Just less parity.  

[WrestlingRasta]

I don't know if he's the most overhyped US wrestler ever, but he's certainly the most overhyped 4 time NCAA champ world silver medalist 23 year old american wrestler ever.

[bnwtwg]

25 minutes ago, WrestlingRasta said:

I don't know if he's the most overhyped US wrestler ever, but he's certainly the most overhyped 4 time NCAA champ world silver medalist 23 year old american wrestler ever.

Still better than the most overhyped 4x NCAA champ and world champ* American wrestler ever.

Still third-best 4x NCAA champ behind Cael and Dake, definitively ahead of Smith, currently ahead of Starocci and Brooks assuming they pull it off. I give Brooks a 4x without an asterisk because Zahid hit the slopes prior to covid and Brooks would have likely won his frosh year in his absence.

Not bad company.

[Wrestleknownothing]

3 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

Still better than the most overhyped 4x NCAA champ and world champ* American wrestler ever.

Still third-best 4x NCAA champ behind Cael and Dake, definitively ahead of Smith, currently ahead of Starocci and Brooks assuming they pull it off. I give Brooks a 4x without an asterisk because Zahid hit the slopes prior to covid and Brooks would have likely won his frosh year in his absence.

Not bad company.

I have Diakomihalis fifth best 4xer behind Sanderson, Steiber, Dake, and Smith if only college careers are considered.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

10 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I have Diakomihalis fifth best 4xer behind Sanderson, Steiber, Dake, and Smith if only college careers are considered.

Yep.  Monday, Schultz, etc. weren't exactly pushovers.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Interviewed_at_Weehawken

[bnwtwg]

11 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I have Diakomihalis fifth best 4xer behind Sanderson, Steiber, Dake, and Smith if only college careers are considered.

 

16 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Yep.  Monday, Schultz, etc. weren't exactly pushovers.

This is about 4x NCAA champs at the freestyle world level. Your heresey cannot be allowed to persist on the international board and must be cast out down to the depths of the College Forum!

[Pinnacle]

On 11/4/2023 at 11:20 PM, Husker_Du said:

i think part of it is that he lost to domestic contemporaries, not just savvy vets wrestling FS full time. 

no one expected him to lose to Nick Lee 3xs.

another thing is, i think, he's been a superstar for so long people forget how young he is - 1 year removed from college (and already has a SR medal).

he's revered. and those kinds of stars often have unreasonable expectations put upon them (spencer lee).

anyone that thinks he's 'overhyped' probably have themselves to blame. no one is going unscathed at 65kg over a multi-year period. 

And lost to them while being hyped as "the" guy at the weight. I think that is what prompted the OP. 

[wrestle87]

How much of this is due to guys, teams, and countries only rolling out the secret recipe best guys for the olympics in many cases and just taking a flyer on worlds completely?

[Elevator]

On 11/4/2023 at 10:46 AM, Antitroll2828 said:

The guy has been hyped as a freestyle savior since his freshman year , despite losing to 4 different us peers in that time frame and I’m a douchebag for asking a question about the hype ?Maybe the only Dbag on this thread is you 

It is a credit to USA wrestling and our system that there are so many U.S. guys who are so competitive. Yianni's "hype" has been appropriate - he can beat anyone at any time even if he does not always do so.    

[mspart]

Agree to an extent.   It is a credit to the US system to bring about such a rapid change in the caliber of our wrestlers.  The 1990s was ok.   Usually we had a medallist at WC and Oly.   2000s not so much.   2010-2023 except for the first couple of years we have always had a medallist.   And recently more than one each year.    Our program has been getting better and better.   It was Burroughs, then Snyder, then Cox, then Dake and Taylor, and then Gilman.   This year we have 7 medals out of 10 weights with 3 gold, 1 silver, and 3 Bronze.   That's pretty darn impressive.   And in the Oly weights, 1 Gold, 1 Silver, and 2 Bronze for 4 out of 6 weights with a medallist.  

And not only that, but mostly the weights are deep here in the US.   I guess we'll see how deep when 2025 comes around.  That's assuming not much changes for 2024 Oly team.   57 and 65 are who knows who will win those, but I think it is pretty clear for the other 4 weights. 

mspart 

[bnwtwg]

3 hours ago, mspart said:

 Dake and Taylor, and then Gilman.

What if I told you Cox medaled a year before Gilman who medaled another year before Dake or Taylor got their first medal

[mspart]

20 hours ago, mspart said:

It was Burroughs, then Snyder, then Cox, then Dake and Taylor, and then Gilman.  

 

 

17 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

What if I told you Cox medaled a year before Gilman who medaled another year before Dake or Taylor got their first medal

You are right.   That's why I listed Cox before Dake, Taylor and Gilman.   Not sure what you are trying to say here. 

mspart