3 point takedowns but 2 point reversals

[wrestle87]

I’m really looking forward to different perspectives that change my opinion on this.  I love wrestling and I don’t want this change to bug me all year.  Right now it really does.  

I just watched the Ohio State wrestle-offs.  

I really dislike how overweighted a 3 point takedown is compared to other scoring events.

I’m open to change (I watch freestyle just as much) but I really don’t think this gets the job done.  We now have a ruleset that aggressively overweights the takedown, and feels like it will drive everything to a poor facsimile of freestyle.

I admit I didn’t do my homework before watching, but I was rather taken aback by how different a 3 point takedown impacted match pace.  

This ruleset removes a number of different possibilities for interesting exchanges actually making a match equal, and it doesn’t reward the awesome non-controlled exposure throws that freestyle and greco do, which are what make freestyle so awesome to me.

Someone who likes this ruleset, I’m begging you, please change my mind and help me like this rule change.

[Idaho]

20 minutes ago, wrestle87 said:

I’m really looking forward to different perspectives that change my opinion on this.  I love wrestling and I don’t want this change to bug me all year.  Right now it really does.  

I just watched the Ohio State wrestle-offs.  

I really dislike how overweighted a 3 point takedown is compared to other scoring events.

I’m open to change (I watch freestyle just as much) but I really don’t think this gets the job done.  We now have a ruleset that aggressively overweights the takedown, and feels like it will drive everything to a poor facsimile of freestyle.

I admit I didn’t do my homework before watching, but I was rather taken aback by how different a 3 point takedown impacted match pace.  

This ruleset removes a number of different possibilities for interesting exchanges actually making a match equal, and it doesn’t reward the awesome non-controlled exposure throws that freestyle and greco do, which are what make freestyle so awesome to me.

Someone who likes this ruleset, I’m begging you, please change my mind and help me like this rule change.

You bring up a good point about the reversal being worth less points than the takedown. Now I have to think about this. 

[AgaveMaria]

I agree a reversal should be the same value as a takedown.

Should a 'catch & release' be worth a point? Letting a guy go rather than an actual escape is scored the same. Way different in reality. A point for an actual escape, nothing for a release, maybe?

How about way more stalling calls for riding without attempting turns to go for pins?

Would eliminate a Technical Fall. You can't pin, you wrestle the full match even it the score is 99-2.

[Silver]

I like 3 pts. for reversal and twooooooooo for takedown.

[Jim L]

Folkstyle still overweights the nearfall more than a TD.  I think to most folkstyle fans this makes sense, though the old school guys hate seeing 4 points for a tilt.

To me taking your opponent off their feet and establishing position deserves more points than a reversal, no logic, just gut feel. In addition, reversal seem relatively rare at the high levels of D1, so not worth fussing over IMO.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Jim L

[Wrestleknownothing]

I kind of like the reversal being worth more than the takedown based on how rare the reversal is because of how hard it is to execute.

I am OK with the 3:1 ratio of takedown to escape. At a 2:1 ratio, the escape carried too much weight to my way of thinking.

But as an alternative I would not mind keeping the 2:1 ratio if they added in a form of freestyle criteria. In that way a 2-2 match that featured 1 takedown versus 2 escapes would favor the wrestler with the takedown.

It helps that I am a big fan of criteria. I love that someone is always trailing and is incentivized to attack. The end of tied freestyle matches are sooooooo exciting, while the end of tied folkstyle matches are soooooooo boring.

[ionel]

9 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I kind of like the reversal being worth more than the takedown based on how rare the reversal is because of how hard it is to execute.

I am OK with the 3:1 ratio of takedown to escape. At a 2:1 ratio, the escape carried too much weight to my way of thinking.

But as an alternative I would not mind keeping the 2:1 ratio if they added in a form of freestyle criteria. In that way a 2-2 match that featured 1 takedown versus 2 escapes would favor the wrestler with the takedown.

It helps that I am a big fan of criteria. I love that someone is always trailing and is incentivized to attack. The end of tied freestyle matches are sooooooo exciting, while the end of tied folkstyle matches are soooooooo boring.

In this digital AI etc age there is really no reason we can't use fractions in scoring.  I say a reversal should be:  Two point Fiiiiive!

[Idaho]

1 hour ago, ionel said:

In this digital AI etc age there is really no reason we can't use fractions in scoring.  I say a reversal should be:  Two point Fiiiiive!

3. twooooooo .... then we can stick with the same word and not be confused about yelling threeeeeee. 

[ionel]

Just now, Idaho said:

3. twooooooo .... then we can stick with the same word and not be confused about yelling threeeeeee. 

Twooooooo point Fiiiiiiive!!

[neutral]

The three point TD is a solution to a non existent problem.  Call stalling whether on feet or the mat.  The TD or reversal are both establishment of control and should always be weighted equal. 

[CoachC]

My only problem is that Stalling is too subjective. We have all seen the official who has taken the match into his own hands, and made crazy match deciding calls. I want the wrestlers to decide the match, not the official. 

In a perfect world, it would make these stall calls more objective. You have to have specific criteria like dropping below the knee for 5 seconds is a stall rather than "not attempting to secure a take down". Words like that make it up to the official and isn't good for any sport. Tom Ryan suggested to get rid of stalling completely. I can definitely see his point.

 

 

 

[Idaho]

31 minutes ago, ionel said:

Twooooooo point Fiiiiiiive!!

I am assuming when actually yelled it would be 

TTWWOOOOOOOOO point five 

[neutral]

I probabably will be less interested in college wrestling with the three point takedown.

[PencilNeck]

4 minutes ago, neutral said:

I probabably will be less interested in college wrestling with the three point takedown.

So, neutral is down on the 3 pt TD. I guess I'll just have to defer to your judgement. Thanks for staying on top of this issue.

[neutral]

Piss off. It is just my 2 cents worth.  The three point TD is a contrived gimmick.  Go back several decades and there was a time when the first TD was 2 and each subsequent was only one.  Another contrived gimmick. 

[nhs67]

Honestly I think the entire thing is dumb.  I think Freestyle is the way to go.  There could be slight tweaks...

Instead of leaving interpretation on the ref, flip before the match to determine who goes on the clock first at say... 90 seconds in to each period.

For duals, they would flip for it to start the dual.

Make it so only two (2) potential points can be earned on shot clock and it is never against the same gent.

If folks are noticeably stalling then call it negative wrestling... caution and 1 immediately.

There.

I fixed college wrestling scoring.

Edited October 31, 2023 by nhs67

[PencilNeck]

32 minutes ago, neutral said:

Piss off. It is just my 2 cents worth.  The three point TD is a contrived gimmick.  Go back several decades and there was a time when the first TD was 2 and each subsequent was only one.  Another contrived gimmick. 

sorry, just thought that given your handle, you'd be for the new rule as some have posited it might increase the amount of on-the-feet wrestling we see at the college level. 

 

I do think this short changes reversals to an extent, though a reversal followed by an escape is still net 1 point. 

 

This gimmick won't change many win/loss outcomes, so it's pretty minor except that we may see a lot more major decisions (a good thing), but yeah, this is not solving any real problems, so i agree completely with your first post. However, i don't think it's causing any problems either.

[neutral]

Maybe it changes outcomes, maybe it doesn't.  An analysis of one point matches that are rescored under the new rules might clarify things.   So now a fifty fifty position that was a TD, and quick reversal puts the score 3-2 instead of 2-2.  Also back exposure should always at least equal or supercede the TD.

[ionel]

2 hours ago, Idaho said:

I am assuming when actually yelled it would be 

TTWWOOOOOOOOO point five 

or:  two dot FIIIIIIIVE!!!

[Caveira]

3 hours ago, neutral said:

The three point TD is a solution to a non existent problem.  Call stalling whether on feet or the mat.  The TD or reversal are both establishment of control and should always be weighted equal. 

Just call stalling yes.   Humans stall when they have a lead and they are tired.   Or when they are just tired.   3 point takedowns will make that worse imo.    
 

wkn maybe a question for you.  Did 4 point near falls lead to a meaningful deviation in the number of pins ?  It certainly doesn’t feel that way…. And certainly didn’t get rid of staling by incentivizing pinfalls.   
 

please stop changing the rules every darn year.    

[ionel]

16 minutes ago, Caveira said:

Just call stalling yes.   Humans stall when they have a lead and they are tired.   Or when they are just tired.   3 point takedowns will make that worse imo.    
 

wkn maybe a question for you.  Did 4 point near falls lead to a meaningful deviation in the number of pins ?  It certainly doesn’t feel that way…. And certainly didn’t get rid of staling by incentivizing pinfalls.   
 

please stop changing the rules every darn year.    

Please don't ask Wkn about the fictitious pf!   

[flyingcement]

More fun things you can do with three point gesture.  For example, I can see Starocci doing the following after a multiple takedown period against Donnell Washington:

Edited October 31, 2023 by flyingcement

[Jim L]

7 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I kind of like the reversal being worth more than the takedown based on how rare the reversal is because of how hard it is to execute.

I am OK with the 3:1 ratio of takedown to escape. At a 2:1 ratio, the escape carried too much weight to my way of thinking.

But as an alternative I would not mind keeping the 2:1 ratio if they added in a form of freestyle criteria. In that way a 2-2 match that featured 1 takedown versus 2 escapes would favor the wrestler with the takedown.

It helps that I am a big fan of criteria. I love that someone is always trailing and is incentivized to attack. The end of tied freestyle matches are sooooooo exciting, while the end of tied folkstyle matches are soooooooo boring.

Clearly you are a wrestlingknownothing and have no respect for the leguons of geriatric wrestling fans you just sent into cardiac arrest but proposing criteria

 

[Jim L]

4 hours ago, neutral said:

The three point TD is a solution to a non existent problem.  Call stalling whether on feet or the mat.  The TD or reversal are both establishment of control and should always be weighted equal. 

Calling more stealing as a way to improve wrestling just won't work. In a close hard fought match it is really hard to see who is stalling more and deserves to get called.  This leads to strategies to do just enough to get to get the ref to call stalling on your opponent... Not what most of us consider "real" wrestling

[Jim L]

7 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I kind of like the reversal being worth more than the takedown based on how rare the reversal is because of how hard it is to execute.

I am OK with the 3:1 ratio of takedown to escape. At a 2:1 ratio, the escape carried too much weight to my way of thinking.

But as an alternative I would not mind keeping the 2:1 ratio if they added in a form of freestyle criteria. In that way a 2-2 match that featured 1 takedown versus 2 escapes would favor the wrestler with the takedown.

It helps that I am a big fan of criteria. I love that someone is always trailing and is incentivized to attack. The end of tied freestyle matches are sooooooo exciting, while the end of tied folkstyle matches are soooooooo boring.

IMO, criteria works in FS because the push out makes it easier to score and eliminate the working out of bounds strategy that happens so often at the end of folkstyle matches