Maine shooting

[jross]

3 minutes ago, mspart said:

Just to ask the question -

Is there any disagreement with the idea that mentally ill people should not possess firearms?

If no disagreement, then that is a way forward that everyone can agree to and we should as a country move in that direction.  If there is disagreement...

mspart

Nope, none.  But the enforcement may not be practical.

[PortaJohn]

27 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

Yes, because of the way they restrict access to guns.  There are licensing requirements

https://impakter.com/why-gun-ownership-switzerland-not-same-us/

 

 

Correct.  like I said I'm all for more gun regulation.  And also the gun culture in Switzerland is far different than the US.  I can't imagine America is going to depart itself from gun ownership.  Just pointing out that there are more responsible ways of going about it.  Lax laws and poor mental health is a recipe for disaster.  

[Plasmodium]

1 minute ago, jross said:

We should be outraged by mass shootings, but where is the outrage towards the frequent gun violence concentrated in just a few blocks of specific cities?  

https://efsgv.org/learn/type-of-gun-violence/community-gun-violence/

It ceased being unusual long ago, so it is not news.  Same is happening with mass shootings.  There was horror and shock at Columbine.  World leaders offered condolence, the Pope prayed.  That was less than 25 years sgo and the times have changed.  There is still horror at these but there is very little shock and only a fool would be surprised.  

[neutral]

14 minutes ago, Ohio Elite said:

Then how are civilians allowed to buy them?  Pull your head out your ass little man.

Because jerks like you and the NRA are bent on lobbying for them to satisfy your small dick compensation.

[BobDole]

Stand for the flag please

[jross]

Interesting information about mass shootings, including recommendations.

https://efsgv.org/learn/type-of-gun-violence/mass-shootings/

 

MEDIA COVERAGE OF MASS SHOOTINGS

The media plays a significant role in how the American public discusses gun violence. The media focuses primarily on mass shootings and other high-profile homicides, even though suicides make up three in every five gun deaths in the United States. In doing so, the media may lead the public to believe that mass shootings contribute to a large percentage of gun deaths in the United States, while in fact, firearm suicides comprise the majority of gun deaths. In fact, dying in a mass shooting is about as rare as being struck by lightning.

Media coverage following a mass shooting also has implications for gun sales. For example, one study found that media coverage of mass shootings is associated with an increase in the number of firearms sold, as indicated by the number of background checks run.

...

FALSE NARRATIVES

There are often two false narratives that emerge in the media after a mass shooting:

1. that mental illness causes gun violence
2. that if more people were armed, there would be fewer firearm-related deaths.

...

RECOMMENDATIONS

...We recommend the following policies:

• Banning assault weapons and large-capacity magazines: Research has found that banning large-capacity magazines is effective at reducing mass shootings.
• Extreme risk laws: allow law enforcement, family, and household members, among others, to petition a judge to temporarily limit an individual’s access to firearms if they are at elevated risk of violence. 
• Universal background checks with licensing: Background checks should be required on every gun sale and transfer in the United States, including private and online sales. 
• Domestic violence firearm prohibitions: Many mass shootings are related to domestic violence. Laws that reduce abusers’ access to firearms are associated with reductions in intimate partner homicide and may also prevent mass shootings.

[WrestlingRasta]

Can agree with all of this

[jross]

20 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

It ceased being unusual long ago, so it is not news.  Same is happening with mass shootings.  There was horror and shock at Columbine.  World leaders offered condolence, the Pope prayed.  That was less than 25 years sgo and the times have changed.  There is still horror at these but there is very little shock and only a fool would be surprised.  

It annoyed me that my kid's schools are locked down and I cannot freely walk into the office during school hours.  I thought to myself "WTF - school shootings are so rare that this isn't a concern."  Then I looked up a school shooting data tracker and discovered shootings at schools near me and mine.  https://www.chds.us/sssc/data-map/. Also, these charts are interesting.  I live in a low-crime area...

[mspart]

4 minutes ago, jross said:

FALSE NARRATIVES

There are often two false narratives that emerge in the media after a mass shooting:

1. that mental illness causes gun violence
2. that if more people were armed, there would be fewer firearm-related deaths.

 

I disagree with nuance.  

1.  It is clear that mentally ill people have perpetrated the majority of mass shootings, at least in the last few years.   Mental illness does not cause gun violence.   But mental illness with gun possession increases the risk of such gun violence.  That is incontrovertible.  

2.  If 15 people in the bowling alley or bar were armed, does anyone think that there would have been fewer firearm related deaths and injuries?   I have to believe the shooter would have been challenged and fled or killed and there are fewer firearm related deaths.  It won't reduce it to zero due to the element of surprise, but reaction will lesson the death toll.  This just seems logical to me.   People being armed in their homes only, would not have resulted in fewer deaths in this case in Maine, to the point of the copied quote. 

mspart

 

 

[Ohio Elite]

13 minutes ago, jross said:

Interesting information about mass shootings, including recommendations.

https://efsgv.org/learn/type-of-gun-violence/mass-shootings/

 

MEDIA COVERAGE OF MASS SHOOTINGS

The media plays a significant role in how the American public discusses gun violence. The media focuses primarily on mass shootings and other high-profile homicides, even though suicides make up three in every five gun deaths in the United States. In doing so, the media may lead the public to believe that mass shootings contribute to a large percentage of gun deaths in the United States, while in fact, firearm suicides comprise the majority of gun deaths. In fact, dying in a mass shooting is about as rare as being struck by lightning.

Media coverage following a mass shooting also has implications for gun sales. For example, one study found that media coverage of mass shootings is associated with an increase in the number of firearms sold, as indicated by the number of background checks run.

...

FALSE NARRATIVES

There are often two false narratives that emerge in the media after a mass shooting:

1. that mental illness causes gun violence
2. that if more people were armed, there would be fewer firearm-related deaths.

...

RECOMMENDATIONS

...We recommend the following policies:

• Banning assault weapons and large-capacity magazines: Research has found that banning large-capacity magazines is effective at reducing mass shootings.
• Extreme risk laws: allow law enforcement, family, and household members, among others, to petition a judge to temporarily limit an individual’s access to firearms if they are at elevated risk of violence. 
• Universal background checks with licensing: Background checks should be required on every gun sale and transfer in the United States, including private and online sales. 
• Domestic violence firearm prohibitions: Many mass shootings are related to domestic violence. Laws that reduce abusers’ access to firearms are associated with reductions in intimate partner homicide and may also prevent mass shootings.

This is good stuff, what would be considered high capacity mags?

Anything over 15 or 20?

[Plasmodium]

14 minutes ago, jross said:

Interesting information about mass shootings, including recommendations.

https://efsgv.org/learn/type-of-gun-violence/mass-shootings/

 

MEDIA COVERAGE OF MASS SHOOTINGS

The media plays a significant role in how the American public discusses gun violence. The media focuses primarily on mass shootings and other high-profile homicides, even though suicides make up three in every five gun deaths in the United States. In doing so, the media may lead the public to believe that mass shootings contribute to a large percentage of gun deaths in the United States, while in fact, firearm suicides comprise the majority of gun deaths. In fact, dying in a mass shooting is about as rare as being struck by lightning.

Media coverage following a mass shooting also has implications for gun sales. For example, one study found that media coverage of mass shootings is associated with an increase in the number of firearms sold, as indicated by the number of background checks run.

...

FALSE NARRATIVES

There are often two false narratives that emerge in the media after a mass shooting:

1. that mental illness causes gun violence
2. that if more people were armed, there would be fewer firearm-related deaths.

...

RECOMMENDATIONS

...We recommend the following policies:

• Banning assault weapons and large-capacity magazines: Research has found that banning large-capacity magazines is effective at reducing mass shootings.
• Extreme risk laws: allow law enforcement, family, and household members, among others, to petition a judge to temporarily limit an individual’s access to firearms if they are at elevated risk of violence. 
• Universal background checks with licensing: Background checks should be required on every gun sale and transfer in the United States, including private and online sales. 
• Domestic violence firearm prohibitions: Many mass shootings are related to domestic violence. Laws that reduce abusers’ access to firearms are associated with reductions in intimate partner homicide and may also prevent mass shootings.

Sounds like Beto.

[uncle bernard]

12 minutes ago, mspart said:

I disagree with nuance.  

We know

[jross]

1 hour ago, mspart said:

I disagree with nuance.  

1.  It is clear that mentally ill people have perpetrated the majority of mass shootings, at least in the last few years.   Mental illness does not cause gun violence.   But mental illness with gun possession increases the risk of such gun violence.  That is incontrovertible.

The article claims it is a false assumption "that mental illness causes gun violence."   Like MSPart, I judge this statement as false!

It cites this research on a small case study that found 13% of the mentally ill had perpetrated violence in the past few years, whereas 34% had been violently victimized.  This supports that not all mentally ill people commit violence, and that is factual.  It is dishonest to use that information to minimize the fact that many people who commit mass shootings have mental illnesses.

Fortunately/unfortunately, many published findings indicate mental illness is a contributor (over 25% and potentially much higher).  I found this article interesting and was disappointed to see this quack-a-framing article (teases out non-psychotic psychiatric or neurological illnesses as separate from mental illness).

Edited October 27, 2023 by jross
clarity

[Paul158]

3 hours ago, VakAttack said:

Given the fact that this is the only "first world" nation where this regularly happens, how could you possibly argue that the easy access to firearms (and notably high-grade firearms) is NOT a root cause for what is happening?

We have close to the highest severe mental illness in the world. Question is why? Just in case you and others are not aware a ar15 is a.223  semi-automatic rifle. It is just a dressed up .223 hunting rifle. It looks bad ass. But a Ruger, Winchester or Remington hunting semi -automatic rifle with a 20 or 30 clip  is just as deadly. It's just not as bad ass looking. By far and away most homicides are committed with pistols. Red flag laws that are strictly enforced would help a great deal. Maine only had flimsy yellow flag laws in place. That was a huge mistake.

[WrestlingRasta]

7 minutes ago, Paul158 said:

We have close to the highest severe mental illness in the world. Question is why? Just in case you and others are not aware a ar15 is a.223  semi-automatic rifle. It is just a dressed up .223 hunting rifle. It looks bad ass. But a Ruger, Winchester or Remington hunting semi -automatic rifle with a 20 or 30 clip  is just as deadly. It's just not as bad ass looking. By far and away most homicides are committed with pistols. Red flag laws that are strictly enforced would help a great deal. Maine only had flimsy yellow flag laws in place. That was a huge mistake.

Speaking of ‘just bad ass looking’ this is  the head trauma doc describing what he got to look at….

 

[Paul158]

2 hours ago, jross said:

Interesting information about mass shootings, including recommendations.

https://efsgv.org/learn/type-of-gun-violence/mass-shootings/

 

MEDIA COVERAGE OF MASS SHOOTINGS

The media plays a significant role in how the American public discusses gun violence. The media focuses primarily on mass shootings and other high-profile homicides, even though suicides make up three in every five gun deaths in the United States. In doing so, the media may lead the public to believe that mass shootings contribute to a large percentage of gun deaths in the United States, while in fact, firearm suicides comprise the majority of gun deaths. In fact, dying in a mass shooting is about as rare as being struck by lightning.

Media coverage following a mass shooting also has implications for gun sales. For example, one study found that media coverage of mass shootings is associated with an increase in the number of firearms sold, as indicated by the number of background checks run.

...

FALSE NARRATIVES

There are often two false narratives that emerge in the media after a mass shooting:

1. that mental illness causes gun violence
2. that if more people were armed, there would be fewer firearm-related deaths.

...

RECOMMENDATIONS

...We recommend the following policies:

• Banning assault weapons and large-capacity magazines: Research has found that banning large-capacity magazines is effective at reducing mass shootings.
• Extreme risk laws: allow law enforcement, family, and household members, among others, to petition a judge to temporarily limit an individual’s access to firearms if they are at elevated risk of violence. 
• Universal background checks with licensing: Background checks should be required on every gun sale and transfer in the United States, including private and online sales. 
• Domestic violence firearm prohibitions: Many mass shootings are related to domestic violence. Laws that reduce abusers’ access to firearms are associated with reductions in intimate partner homicide and may also prevent mass shootings.

Great job on the researching. The recommendations are very good.

[ionel]

4 minutes ago, WrestlingRasta said:

Speaking of ‘just bad ass looking’ this is  the head trauma doc describing what he got to look at….

 

This is because the .223 round tumbles after impact.  Look at JFK case and think ... hmm. 

[Paul158]

23 minutes ago, WrestlingRasta said:

Speaking of ‘just bad ass looking’ this is  the head trauma doc describing what he got to look at….

 

Yes all rifles .223 and up are bad ass rifles not just the fancy AR15. Same rounds as the .223 hunting rifle. I would bet that doctor has not been a war or has even seen rifle wounds.  Almost all gun related crimes are committed with pistols. Huge difference. The .AR15 is a .223 all dressed up. Yes it shoots lethal rounds.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Paul158

[Paul158]

6 minutes ago, ionel said:

This is because the .223 round tumbles after impact.  Look at JFK case and think ... hmm. 

Yes . The .223 is a lethal round. Absolutely. It is really imperative that all state have red flag laws that are strictly enforced. This would be a great start to preventing these shootings. Maine had poorly enforced yellow flag laws.

[Bigbrog]

And yet, just like on here, time and effort is wasted arguing back and forth about AR's because they look scary and yet no time and effort is spent on addressing mental health issues and all the associated gun ownership legislation.  Typical emotional responses...."blame the AR!!!!"  "It's a weapon of war!!!"   And people sure love to argue semantics as well as claim people say things and mean things they didn't say.

[Plasmodium]

26 minutes ago, Paul158 said:

Yes . The .223 is a lethal round. Absolutely. It is really imperative that all state have red flag laws that are strictly enforced. This would be a great start to preventing these shootings. Maine had poorly enforced yellow flag laws.

That means there has to be national gun reform laws.

[Ohio Elite]

9 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

That means there has to be national gun reform laws.

Not gonna happen...

[jross]

5 minutes ago, Bigbrog said:

And yet, just like on here, time and effort is wasted arguing back and forth about AR's because they look scary and yet no time and effort is spent on addressing mental health issues and all the associated gun ownership legislation.  Typical emotional responses...."blame the AR!!!!"  "It's a weapon of war!!!"   And people sure love to argue semantics as well as claim people say things and mean things they didn't say.

We use smaller plates in my house to make it easier to portion control.  Nobody needs to check my family's mental health or educate us on food portions.  We eat less food because less food fits on our plates.

I treat my stress with food...  I plead to my wife to keep sugars out of the house, and she tells me to have some self-control.  I ask her to help by keeping temptation away.

Restrict the guns and the gun violence will reduce. (regardless of the underlying harder to solve causes)

[ionel]

1 minute ago, jross said:

We use smaller plates in my house to make it easier to portion control.  Nobody needs to check my family's mental health or educate us on food portions.  We eat less food because less food fits on our plates.

I treat my stress with food...  I plead to my wife to keep sugars out of the house, and she tells me to have some self-control.  I ask her to help by keeping temptation away.

Restrict the guns and the gun violence will reduce. (regardless of the underlying harder to solve causes)

Why not go after the ammo instead?

[Paul158]

20 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

That means there has to be national gun reform laws.

Why not people reform. They commit the crimes (murders) albeit with a rifle ,a car , a pistol, a knife.