Reminder - mat side weigh ins are the way to go

[ThreePointTakedown]

5 hours ago, Jason Bryant said:

I’ve been around the sport for almost 30 years at this point and I’ve heard “matside weigh ins” thrown around since I got started.

Not once have I ever seen it. I ask this openly to the board, how can something solve a problem when we have next to no tangible practice or data to support it. I hear people clamoring for it, but where does it actually occur?

Its always an arms race. With hydration, athletes and more than a few coaches figured out how to side step the protocol. They were able to participate in a way that we all agree is unhealthy, both physically and mentally. 

I think this should be implemented for that reason. Its not been done and not be shown to work. A little planning, staggering the weights which wouldn't be difficult to do considering the amount of data we can sift through from tournaments run over the last decade. How long does it take to run x number of matches in a weight class? Average it out for the last 1000 tournaments run. Extrapolate or compile or whatever... Done. I imagine Track could do this and put together a table or algorithm to help optimize this tournament format. Then build a tournament format from that. Will there be weight cutting, probably. But considering the immediate impact to your performance going from scale to mat. A weight cutter will rethink the ROI of cutting as much or any weight to sacrifice performance in that first match. 

Side note: Will they make us pay for it using their development and thus reduce the chance of it being implemented? Maybe. Discussion for another day.

Tweak the format as needed, build in some safeguards(ie. rounds may start later but never earlier, kinda thing). I doubt I'm the only one that doesn't mind sleeping in on competition days. Randomize the weight classes ahead of time, really make it fun. Lets jump into quell some naysayers, 'but I don't like change!' Tough! Just sit down and shut up! Will there be some growing pains? Yes. Growth is like that sometimes. But to keep kids focused on getting better at skills and strategy rather than limiting water, is a win regardless of how we get there. Let participation numbers drop. They'll come back. The game is great, it will survive. 

[Jim L]

24 minutes ago, BobDole said:

It's not about wrestling at your natural weight, it's how much your weight can fluctuate throughout the day. On top of that you're engaged in a physically demanding sport every hour. Now after a tough match you have to be aware of how much water/gatorade you have on top of preparing for battle.

As a coach now you would need to monitor those kids that are naturally close all day long on top of coaching and dealing with the crazy parents. 

Just curious on how much you think weight would vary if someone is not dehydrated/ sucked out to begin with.

One weigh-in per tournament with all the matches happening in relative quick  succession would address this similar to the day1 of the world championship tournaments

[Jim L]

32 minutes ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

.... But to keep kids focused on getting better at skills and strategy rather than limiting water, is a win regardless of how we get there. Let participation numbers drop. They'll come back. The game is great, it will survive. 

This! (though I don't see how less weight cutting would ever make numbers drop, even temporarily)

[BobDole]

19 minutes ago, Jim L said:

Just curious on how much you think weight would vary if someone is not dehydrated/ sucked out to begin with.

One weigh-in per tournament with all the matches happening in relative quick  succession would address this similar to the day1 of the world championship tournaments

One weigh-in is not an issue, it's up to 5 or more for a multi-match day that is going to cause issues. No kid should have to worry about their weight for 5 weigh-ins in one day. I don't care if you are wrestling your natural weight or 10lbs up, you'll still have to be overly aware of everything you eat and constantly check your weight in case you are over. Kids do not need an unhealthy obsession with checking their weight 20 times in one day. That is flat out wrong and will hinder the sport.

Multiple weigh-ins in one day create more issues than it will attempt to solve.

[BobDole]

20 minutes ago, Jim L said:

This! (though I don't see how less weight cutting would ever make numbers drop, even temporarily)

It's not the less weight cutting that is the issue with this. It is the fact that tournaments will run longer, require more equipment(scales), and require more workers. On top of that we do not need kids to be worrying about their weight and what they are eating or drinking for 10+ hours of the day while in the middle of a competition.

Dealing with enough teenagers, they are dumb and worrying about them for one weigh-in is way more than enough stress. Now you have to worry about it for 5 matches while coaching and making sure he isn't sneaking off to go chug a water.

[BobDole]

26 minutes ago, Jim L said:

This! (though I don't see how less weight cutting would ever make numbers drop, even temporarily)

If you want to ruin the sport for the youth level implement mat side weigh-ins for every match at a tournament. Now Mom and Dad will love it when they sit around for two hours for little Johnny's match and find out he drank too much Gatorade beforehand and can't wrestle.

[PencilNeck]

1 hour ago, nhs67 said:

Having kids weigh in a different amount of times throughout the day(s) as well as with varying times between weigh-ins will never gain traction - nor should it.

It isn't fair to ask a kid to potentially weigh in three times within a 65 minute span, where one might be weighing in once in that space... and it is asking too much of these kids in tournaments where they are already beating themselves raw physically.

You think defaulting out and pitch counting is a problem now?  It will be a much larger problem then.

If that's a problem, the kid can always, you know, wrestle one weight class higher.

    But that conflicts with his goals of cutting a ton of weight!

Ah, the matside weigh ins are meant to discourage cutting weight

  Why would you want to discourage that?

Edited October 18, 2023 by PencilNeck
added to the post

[Jim L]

1 minute ago, BobDole said:

If you want to ruin the sport for the youth level implement mat side weigh-ins for every match at a tournament. Now Mom and Dad will love it when they sit around for two hours for little Johnny's match and find out he drank too much Gatorade beforehand and can't wrestle.

Not what I was saying at all. One weigh-in per tournament and all the matches happen quickly afterward.  All day tournaments turn into two hour affairs for Mom and Dad. 

[AgaveMaria]

7 hours ago, ionel said:

Do you think we could get Tom & Cael to try it in the PSU v Iowa dual?  Will they need to provide all fans with special glasses to wear, kind've like for the eclipsed?  

Don't talk about Special Glasses at Iowa. It triggers Spencer Lee into PTSD.

[Formally140]

3 hours ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

Its always an arms race. With hydration, athletes and more than a few coaches figured out how to side step the protocol. They were able to participate in a way that we all agree is unhealthy, both physically and mentally. 

I think this should be implemented for that reason. Its not been done and not be shown to work. A little planning, staggering the weights which wouldn't be difficult to do considering the amount of data we can sift through from tournaments run over the last decade. How long does it take to run x number of matches in a weight class? Average it out for the last 1000 tournaments run. Extrapolate or compile or whatever... Done. I imagine Track could do this and put together a table or algorithm to help optimize this tournament format. Then build a tournament format from that. Will there be weight cutting, probably. But considering the immediate impact to your performance going from scale to mat. A weight cutter will rethink the ROI of cutting as much or any weight to sacrifice performance in that first match. 

Side note: Will they make us pay for it using their development and thus reduce the chance of it being implemented? Maybe. Discussion for another day.

Tweak the format as needed, build in some safeguards(ie. rounds may start later but never earlier, kinda thing). I doubt I'm the only one that doesn't mind sleeping in on competition days. Randomize the weight classes ahead of time, really make it fun. Lets jump into quell some naysayers, 'but I don't like change!' Tough! Just sit down and shut up! Will there be some growing pains? Yes. Growth is like that sometimes. But to keep kids focused on getting better at skills and strategy rather than limiting water, is a win regardless of how we get there. Let participation numbers drop. They'll come back. The game is great, it will survive. 

Programs will drop. Everyone is making very big assumptions 

[Formally140]

3 hours ago, BobDole said:

One weigh-in is not an issue, it's up to 5 or more for a multi-match day that is going to cause issues. No kid should have to worry about their weight for 5 weigh-ins in one day. I don't care if you are wrestling your natural weight or 10lbs up, you'll still have to be overly aware of everything you eat and constantly check your weight in case you are over. Kids do not need an unhealthy obsession with checking their weight 20 times in one day. That is flat out wrong and will hinder the sport.

Multiple weigh-ins in one day create more issues than it will attempt to solve.

 

[nhs67]

3 hours ago, PencilNeck said:

If that's a problem, the kid can always, you know, wrestle one weight class higher.

    But that conflicts with his goals of cutting a ton of weight!

Ah, the matside weigh ins are meant to discourage cutting weight

  Why would you want to discourage that?

You're completely dismissing the more important things that high school athletic commissions look at, such as fairnness and lack of complications.

As I said, I have seen it for one-off duals and have seen it work.  For individual tournaments where one kid might weigh in twice and another kid might weigh in five times isn't going to fly for them.

[MPhillips]

Weigh in the whole team at once. Ten wrestlers not exceed 1,710 pounds...

[nick]

6 hours ago, BobDole said:

Dealing with enough teenagers, they are dumb and worrying about them for one weigh-in is way more than enough stress. Now you have to worry about it for 5 matches while coaching and making sure he isn't sneaking off to go chug a water.

Indiana this year you can do up to six matches in one day (limit of 10 in a two day span however) - that would be a ton of weighins, no idea how a coach could manage that effectively while dealing with actual coaching and people management

[Dark Energy]

Glad to see the discussion.  I like the idea that weighins can occur at centralized spot for a tourney … weigh in once on double deck, or something like that.  Perhaps a small allowance as day goes on.  But maybe not.

 

These ‘issues’ about having to weigh in so much are still using the mindset of a wrestler cutting weight big time.  Wrestle at natural weight, people will learn to come in 2-3 pounds under.  Plenty of space to deal with eating and drinking during day.  

This could be done - not too hard.  Forfeits in the beginning?  Yea, there will be more - until the knuckleheads learn.  
 

 

[Wrestleknownothing]

3 hours ago, MPhillips said:

Weigh in the whole team at once. Ten wrestlers not exceed 1,710 pounds...

[ionel]

45 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

This would be an interesting concept.  Alternate throwing out a wrestler, other team counters, no weight classes.  

[JVStateChamp]

16 hours ago, Jim L said:

Just curious on how much you think weight would vary if someone is not dehydrated/ sucked out to begin with

I would say obviously depends on the individual even when not dehydrated an athlete is still going to want to drink water and possibly a Gatorade, then if they want to eat say a bagel. I think someone's weight could fluctuate depending on how much they sweat throughout the match roughly 2-3 lbs. Maybe a little less depending on the individual, but doing this throughout the day, especially with morning weigh-ins someone's weight could fluctuate enough to cause impact. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

9 hours ago, Dark Energy said:

Glad to see the discussion.  I like the idea that weighins can occur at centralized spot for a tourney … weigh in once on double deck, or something like that.  Perhaps a small allowance as day goes on.  But maybe not.

 

These ‘issues’ about having to weigh in so much are still using the mindset of a wrestler cutting weight big time.  Wrestle at natural weight, people will learn to come in 2-3 pounds under.  Plenty of space to deal with eating and drinking during day.  

This could be done - not too hard.  Forfeits in the beginning?  Yea, there will be more - until the knuckleheads learn.  
 

 

If you are "learning to come in a few pounds under," it is not your natural weight.

[jchapman]

14 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

If you are "learning to come in a few pounds under," it is not your natural weight.

Learn which weight class allows you to come in a few pounds under while at your natural weight.

[JVStateChamp]

3 minutes ago, jchapman said:

Learn which weight class allows you to come in a few pounds under while at your natural weight

This feels like we're heading towards madison weight classes. 

For dual meets, you show up, step on the scale and whichever wrestler weighs closest to that weight you wrestle that opponent on the spot. Obviously, I am being dramatic, but schools have taken steps towards limiting poor weight cuts. I believe doing mat-side weigh-ins is actually going to have a negative impact on people fixating on their weight. Let me check my weight 5 times a day to ensure I am able to wrestle and if I am 1 pound over because I drank an extra Gatorade after my last match I need to run it off before my next. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

5 minutes ago, jchapman said:

Learn which weight class allows you to come in a few pounds under while at your natural weight.

So imagine my state uses the following NFHS suggested weights: 108 lbs., 116 lbs., 124 lbs., 131 lbs., 138 lbs., 145 lbs., 152 lbs., 160 lbs., 170 lbs., 190 lbs., 215 lbs., 285 lbs.

If we are following this advice: If I weigh 168,169, or 170, then I should go up to 190?

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

1 minute ago, JVStateChamp said:

This feels like we're heading towards madison weight classes. 

For dual meets, you show up, step on the scale and whichever wrestler weighs closest to that weight you wrestle that opponent on the spot. Obviously, I am being dramatic, but schools have taken steps towards limiting poor weight cuts. I believe doing mat-side weigh-ins is actually going to have a negative impact on people fixating on their weight. Let me check my weight 5 times a day to ensure I am able to wrestle and if I am 1 pound over because I drank an extra Gatorade after my last match I need to run it off before my next. 

100%

[Dark Energy]

Guys.  Take a deep breath.  People fixate on their weight today.  If I can comfortably be 145 and wrestle well  on the spot … and there is a 149 weight class … all good.  Wrestle 149.  If 149 is hard to maintain for a full day, well, wrestle up then.   Making this sound way too freaking hard.  
 

Like I said to start, there would be some hiccups early … but do you honestly think that wrestlers and coaches are so dumb that after a few seasons people wouldn’t figure out how to make this work and work well?  If so, my opinion of the community is higher than yours.  
 

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Dark Energy

[JVStateChamp]

11 minutes ago, Dark Energy said:

Guys.  Take a deep breath.  People fixate on their weight today.  If I can comfortably be 145 and wrestle well  on the spot … and there is a 149 weight class … all good.  Wrestle 149.  If 149 is hard to maintain for a full day, well, wrestle up then.   Making this sound way to freaking hard.  

This will induce more forfeits at all levels. For college coaches, finding a 20-year-old wrestler who naturally walks around at 122-123 will be very challenging. If the NCAA decides to go towards this change, weight class changes will be needed. 

Also, where do you see the biggest negative impact on the weigh-in process right now in Division 1 wrestling? 

Edited October 19, 2023 by JVStateChamp