Israel Attacked

[mspart]

4 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

Morally bankrupt attitude. If you don't care how it happened, you don't care that it will happen again.

I disagree, but what is your answer to resolve this?  You claim to understand all of this, but what is your answer to it?

mspart

[uncle bernard]

2 minutes ago, mspart said:

I disagree, but what is your answer to resolve this?  You claim to understand all of this, but what is your answer to it?

mspart

I don't claim to have a magic answer. But you start with enforcing international law. The illegal settlements should be disbanded. The blockade on Gaza ended. Special privileges for Jewish citizens ended. Equal rights for Jew and Muslim. End illegal imprisonments of Palestinians. Thousands are being held indefinitely with no charges and don't know where they are or why they're there. Equal access to the political process. 

In other words, start acting like a Democracy, not an autocratic ethnostate.

But you can't even get to that point until you understand that the current situation is wrong and the current situation is dictated by Israel.

[uncle bernard]

By the way, you all may think I'm some kind of loony leftist or whatever, but Haaretz, the paper of record in Israel, is saying all of these things right now. 

[uncle bernard]

 

Good thread analogizing what living in Gaza is like in an American context. If you care to understand what could turn people into bloodthirsty killers, read it.

[uncle bernard]

 

This is what it boils down to.

[uncle bernard]

 

 

[Husker_Du]

On 10/8/2023 at 8:32 AM, Ban Basketball said:

I've lived my entire life blissfully ignorant

first thing you were correct about in weeks. 

[Husker_Du]

8 hours ago, Ban Basketball said:

Satan is opposed to God, which the three monotheistic religions hold "possession" of the same one.  

It's the same God, so,  no,  Satan isn't picking Islam over Judaism, or even Christianity,  for that matter. 

this is the second. 

[Husker_Du]

7 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

Any discussion that doesn't begin with the occupation is wrong from the start. The Palestinians were forcibly removed from there homes, packed into a small strip of land where their movements

when? 

[Husker_Du]

5 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

 

 

why is this even remotely interesting or revealing? 

[Le duke]

why is this even remotely interesting or revealing? 

Well, it shows that Israel is more or less fine with Hamas existing because their very existence means no two state solution. Netanyahu is fine with taking some casualties because it guarantees that Israel will never cede land to Palestinians/Palestine. And, that Israel isn’t really interested in any kind of “peace”.


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[Ban Basketball]

1 hour ago, Husker_Du said:

first thing you were correct about in weeks. 

Nice editing job,  Fox.

[Ban Basketball]

1 hour ago, Husker_Du said:

this is the second. 

The second what?

[GreatWhiteNorth]

13 hours ago, Bigbrog said:

Ironically, I wasn't directing my point solely at you nor calling YOU the narcissist...

Yes, I know. Read my post again. I wasn't claiming to be the "narcissist" you were referencing.

[GreatWhiteNorth]

6 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

Good thread analogizing what living in Gaza is like in an American context. If you care to understand what could turn people into bloodthirsty killers, read it.

You nailed it.

Like dogs that have gotten rabies, they have turned into bloodthirsty killers.

The thing is - rabid dogs need to be put down. Doesn't matter the circumstance.

Obvious point you seem to be missing:

Those that seek to specifically kill innocent people are fundamentally different from those that try not to.

[jross]

4 hours ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

You nailed it.

Like dogs that have gotten rabies, they have turned into bloodthirsty killers.

The thing is - rabid dogs need to be put down. Doesn't matter the circumstance.

Obvious point you seem to be missing:

Those that seek to specifically kill innocent people are fundamentally different from those that try not to.

 

but do you remember when…

[uncle bernard]

15 hours ago, Le duke said:

Well, it shows that Israel is more or less fine with Hamas existing because their very existence means no two state solution. Netanyahu is fine with taking some casualties because it guarantees that Israel will never cede land to Palestinians/Palestine. And, that Israel isn’t really interested in any kind of “peace”.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Spot on. And to add, any damage that Hamas does to Israeli citizens only bolsters the Israeli right wing, keeps him in power, and most importantly out of jail for his corruption charges.

[uncle bernard]

16 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

when? 

Are you for real? lmao That's not even disputed history.

If you're interested in learning, read up on "The Nakba" here: https://www.un.org/unispal/about-the-nakba/

"In November 1947, the UN General Assembly passed a resolution partitioning Palestine into two states, one Jewish and one Arab, with Jerusalem under a UN administration. The Arab world rejected the plan, arguing that it was unfair and violated the UN Charter. Jewish militias launched attacks against Palestinian villages, forcing thousands to flee. The situation escalated into a full-blown war in 1948, with the end of the British Mandate and the departure of British forces, the declaration of independence of the State of Israel and the entry of neighbouring Arab armies. The newly established Israeli forces launched a major offensive. The result of the war was the permanent displacement of more than half of the Palestinian population....

....The Nakba anniversary is a reminder not only of those tragic events of 1948, but of the ongoing injustice suffered by the Palestinians. The Nakba had a profound impact on the Palestinian people, who lost their homes, their land, and their way of life. It remains a deeply traumatic event in their collective memory and continues to shape their struggle for justice and for their right to return to their homes."

[uncle bernard]

10 hours ago, jross said:

 

but do you remember when…

ooof @GreatWhiteNorth

[Husker_Du]

i'm not disputing it. my point is the date and the reason for it. 

[uncle bernard]

1 minute ago, Husker_Du said:

i'm not disputing it. my point is the date and the reason for it. 

Not talking about the UN Plan (though I think it was misguided). It's what happened afterwards. Look at the map. They were meant to share the land as one people, not steal it. And all of that is explicitly illegal under international law.

[Plasmodium]

41 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

Are you for real? lmao That's not even disputed history.

If you're interested in learning, read up on "The Nakba" here: https://www.un.org/unispal/about-the-nakba/

"In November 1947, the UN General Assembly passed a resolution partitioning Palestine into two states, one Jewish and one Arab, with Jerusalem under a UN administration. The Arab world rejected the plan, arguing that it was unfair and violated the UN Charter. Jewish militias launched attacks against Palestinian villages, forcing thousands to flee. The situation escalated into a full-blown war in 1948, with the end of the British Mandate and the departure of British forces, the declaration of independence of the State of Israel and the entry of neighbouring Arab armies. The newly established Israeli forces launched a major offensive. The result of the war was the permanent displacement of more than half of the Palestinian population....

....The Nakba anniversary is a reminder not only of those tragic events of 1948, but of the ongoing injustice suffered by the Palestinians. The Nakba had a profound impact on the Palestinian people, who lost their homes, their land, and their way of life. It remains a deeply traumatic event in their collective memory and continues to shape their struggle for justice and for their right to return to their homes."

This is an extremely complex history.  There has been a lot of change in the last 75 years.  For example, saying Israel launched a major offensive is very misleading.  They didn't even have a regular army and were outnumbered many, many to one. A cardinal reason the Arabs rejected the UN charter was they were very confident they would annihilate the Jews.  Much of the land that has changed hands over the course of Israeli history is a direct result of IDF success in repelling Arab aggression.

The primary change in the last 75 years is the emergence of Israel as an economic, military and political power.  IMO, their own leadership has not recognized this and steadfastly refused to work towards peace and acknowledging they will have Palestinians as neighbors.  Israel is cruel to Palestinians and has no path to peace with their current policies.  They need radically different policies because the Palestinians have nowhere to go and will soon outnumber Jews, if they don't already.  Gaza is a prison or a refuge camp at best.  People can't live like that indefinitely.

[mspart]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-palestine-hamas-attack-hostages-gaza-strip-b2426936.html

Decapitating people is 1st degree murder.   They raped and murdered women.   They killed children in front of their parents.   They indiscriminately mowed down youth at a dance party.   They paraded bodies around Gaza to cheers.   Again, what did they expect as a response?  This was a monstrous attack by cold blooded killers.   They should expect a somewhat similar response.  

The billions (and possibly trillion) of dollars of aid to the Palestinians has gone where?  To make the people's lives better?  To improve infrastructure?   Apparently not. 

mspart

[uncle bernard]

12 minutes ago, mspart said:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-palestine-hamas-attack-hostages-gaza-strip-b2426936.html

Decapitating people is 1st degree murder.   They raped and murdered women.   They killed children in front of their parents.   They indiscriminately mowed down youth at a dance party.   They paraded bodies around Gaza to cheers.   Again, what did they expect as a response?  This was a monstrous attack by cold blooded killers.   They should expect a somewhat similar response.  

The billions (and possibly trillion) of dollars of aid to the Palestinians has gone where?  To make the people's lives better?  To improve infrastructure?   Apparently not. 

mspart

Israel is doing all of those things too. The one-sidedness of Western outrage is part of the problem because as long as Israel is allowed to murder with impunity, Palestinians will return the favor. 

[uncle bernard]

24 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

This is an extremely complex history.  There has been a lot of change in the last 75 years.  For example, saying Israel launched a major offensive is very misleading.  They didn't even have a regular army and were outnumbered many, many to one. A cardinal reason the Arabs rejected the UN charter was they were very confident they would annihilate the Jews.  Much of the land that has changed hands over the course of Israeli history is a direct result of IDF success in repelling Arab aggression.

The primary change in the last 75 years is the emergence of Israel as an economic, military and political power.  IMO, their own leadership has not recognized this and steadfastly refused to work towards peace and acknowledging they will have Palestinians as neighbors.  Israel is cruel to Palestinians and has no path to peace with their current policies.  They need radically different policies because the Palestinians have nowhere to go and will soon outnumber Jews, if they don't already.  Gaza is a prison or a refuge camp at best.  People can't live like that indefinitely.

You're arguing with the UN on this? 

The bolded is a war crime by the way.

The Palestinians already outnumber the Jews. That's why Israel is moving to strip their political rights even further. If they enfranchised the people in occupied land, Israel would no longer by a Jewish majority state. 

While Westerners quibble about whether it's apartheid because of this and that reason, the Israeli government is pretty explicit that it's seeking to establish an apartheid system where non-Jews do not have the same rights.