Top ten US freestylers of all time

[peanut]

This, of course, is my opinion.

1. JB
2. Smith
3. Bruce
4. DT
5. Snyder
6. Dake
7. Kemp
8. KJ
9. M. Schultz
10. D. Schultz

[Tripnsweep]

Adeline should be in there somewhere. 

[billyhoyle]

Like OP, this is my opinion. I consider the Olympics to be significantly more important than the world championships in terms of legacy, especially now with non Olympic weights. I also think 1980 and  1984 need to be considered on an individual basis. 

1. Smith

2. J.B.

3. Taylor (he moves to second after winning in Paris)

4. Snyder 

5. Bruce

6. Monday

7. Jackson

8. Mark Schultz

9. Lee Kemp

10. Dan Gable
 

Dake is absent from my list but moves to 6 if he wins next year. Gable would be 4 if he comes back and wins. 

Edited September 19, 2023 by billyhoyle

[Perry]

To me Taylor will forever be below JB and Dake given his record vs the two. 

[peanut]

7 hours ago, billyhoyle said:

Like OP, this is my opinion. I consider the Olympics to be significantly more important than the world championships in terms of legacy, especially now with non Olympic weights. I also think 1980 and  1984 need to be considered on an individual basis. 

1. Smith

2. J.B.

3. Taylor (he moves to second after winning in Paris)

4. Snyder 

5. Bruce

6. Monday

7. Jackson

8. Mark Schultz

9. Lee Kemp

10. Dan Gable
 

Dake is absent from my list but moves to 6 if he wins next year. Gable would be 4 if he comes back and wins. 

I think the label “the Olympics” normally certifies that a weight is fully loaded with the best in the world.  But world titles can be in fully loaded weights, and Olympic titles can be in non-fully loaded weights. The 1984 Olympics, for example, were not fully loaded.

Moreover — if we’re going to get into how loaded a weight was — it’s tough to compare the era of ten Olympic weights to the era of six Olympic weights. Olympic weights were once thinner all around.  

Finally, we should remember that US athletes in 1980 didn’t even have a shot at the Olympics. Arguably, Kemp should be credited for winning the 1980 Super Champions gold, where he defeated the 1980 Olympic gold medalist.

[ionel]

2 hours ago, Perry said:

To me Taylor will forever be below JB and Dake given his record vs the two. 

What about JB's record vs Marsteller? 

[fishbane]

18 minutes ago, ionel said:

What about JB's record vs Marsteller? 

5-3 in JB's favor I believe.  

I also think Taylor's domestic record hurts his standing a bit.  He was 0-5 against Dake in freestyle and 0-3 in NCAA competition.  He is 1-4 against Burroughs with that one win being on criteria and with Burroughs essentially wrestling up a weight for that Flo event.  He is 1-2 against Cox.  He only really got a spot after moving out of Burroughs's weight even then not until  79 and 92kg were added and Dake went down and Cox went up.  I don't think any of the other top 5 guys had to move around after being consistently beaten out for the spot like Taylor.

Edited September 19, 2023 by fishbane

[nhs67]

1 - Kyle Dake

2 - David Taylor

3 - David Taylor

4 - David Taylor

5 - David Taylor

6 - David Taylor

7 - David Taylor

8 - David Taylor

9 - David Taylor

10 - David Taylor

 

[Eagle26]

I can understand a debate between ranking Dake and Taylor now. However, what is the possible justification for people putting Taylor over Snyder? Margin of victory or recency bias are the only reasons I could think of. Snyder has same number of world golds, same number of Olympic gold and more medals overall. Plus an all time great in Sadulaev that prevented him from winning a bunch more golds. And he did it all at a younger age than DT. 

[Luckysevens]

9 hours ago, billyhoyle said:

Like OP, this is my opinion. I consider the Olympics to be significantly more important than the world championships in terms of legacy, especially now with non Olympic weights. I also think 1980 and  1984 need to be considered on an individual basis. 

1. Smith

2. J.B.

3. Taylor (he moves to second after winning in Paris)

4. Snyder 

5. Bruce

6. Monday

7. Jackson

8. Mark Schultz

9. Lee Kemp

10. Dan Gable
 

Dake is absent from my list but moves to 6 if he wins next year. Gable would be 4 if he comes back and wins. 

If you consider Olympics to be significantly more important, how do you not rate Baumgartner higher? 

[fishbane]

8 minutes ago, Eagle26 said:

I can understand a debate between ranking Dake and Taylor now. However, what is the possible justification for people putting Taylor over Snyder? Margin of victory or recency bias are the only reasons I could think of. Snyder has same number of world golds, same number of Olympic gold and more medals overall. Plus an all time great in Sadulaev that prevented him from winning a bunch more golds. And he did it all at a younger age than DT. 

I'll give it a try.  I think it has to do with Yazdani and how Taylor has consistently beaten him.  Taylor is 5-1 vs Yazdani.  If not for Taylor, Yazdani would likely have 7-8 World/Olympic titles, and his career would look at lot like Sadulaev's who has 7.  Yazdani really has been similarly dominant to Sadulaev aside from Taylor.  Yazdani has only lost 8 matches, 5 of which were to Taylor.  Sadulav has 4 career loses 1 of which was Snyder.  

Taylor is also 1-0 vs Sharifov who is 2-0 against Snyder.  

Taylor has 4 world/olympic golds and whilst Snyder has the same number one of those was in 2022 where the top guy was likely not allowed in the tournament (Sadulaev).  The Russian/Belarus ban hurts Taylor less than Dake or Snyder because the top guy at his weight (Yazdani) was unaffected.  Some may consider Snyder's 4th title slightly less significant than any of Taylor's.  I guess Sadulaev's performance at worlds this year, might debunk that line of thinking since he likely wouldn't have won worlds in 2022 wrestling like that.

A similar line of thinking could ding Dake's titles.  He won his first two at a non-Olympic weight and I think most consider World titles in non-Olympic weights less prestigious/difficult/significant than Olympic weights.  And even his titles at 74kg came when the top 2 guys either skipped worlds because it was only a few months after the COVID-delayed Olympics or their countries were banned from competing.  I'd probably rank titles at the last 5 world championships like this 2018=2019=2023>2021>2022 with Olympic weights being better than non-Olympic weights.  For Taylor's weight they are nearly all the same because the top guy wasn't banned and didn't skip.

[neweruser69]

8 minutes ago, fishbane said:

I'll give it a try.  I think it has to do with Yazdani and how Taylor has consistently beaten him.  Taylor is 5-1 vs Yazdani.  If not for Taylor, Yazdani would likely have 7-8 World/Olympic titles, and his career would look at lot like Sadulaev's who has 7.  Yazdani really has been similarly dominant to Sadulaev aside from Taylor.  Yazdani has only lost 8 matches, 5 of which were to Taylor.  Sadulav has 4 career loses 1 of which was Snyder.  

Taylor is also 1-0 vs Sharifov who is 2-0 against Snyder.  

Taylor has 4 world/olympic golds and whilst Snyder has the same number one of those was in 2022 where the top guy was likely not allowed in the tournament (Sadulaev).  The Russian/Belarus ban hurts Taylor less than Dake or Snyder because the top guy at his weight (Yazdani) was unaffected.  Some may consider Snyder's 4th title slightly less significant than any of Taylor's.  I guess Sadulaev's performance at worlds this year, might debunk that line of thinking since he likely wouldn't have won worlds in 2022 wrestling like that.

A similar line of thinking could ding Dake's titles.  He won his first two at a non-Olympic weight and I think most consider World titles in non-Olympic weights less prestigious/difficult/significant than Olympic weights.  And even his titles at 74kg came when the top 2 guys either skipped worlds because it was only a few months after the COVID-delayed Olympics or their countries were banned from competing.  I'd probably rank titles at the last 5 world championships like this 2018=2019=2023>2021>2022 with Olympic weights being better than non-Olympic weights.  For Taylor's weight they are nearly all the same because the top guy wasn't banned and didn't skip.

The only real counterpoint would be 74KG is a much tougher class and therefore it means more. Outside of Taylor and Yazdani at 86 it's a ghosttown. But 74 is and always will be loaded. 

[Gus]

10 minutes ago, fishbane said:

I'll give it a try.  I think it has to do with Yazdani and how Taylor has consistently beaten him.  Taylor is 5-1 vs Yazdani.  If not for Taylor, Yazdani would likely have 7-8 World/Olympic titles, and his career would look at lot like Sadulaev's who has 7.  Yazdani really has been similarly dominant to Sadulaev aside from Taylor.  Yazdani has only lost 8 matches, 5 of which were to Taylor.  Sadulav has 4 career loses 1 of which was Snyder.  

Taylor is also 1-0 vs Sharifov who is 2-0 against Snyder.  

Taylor has 4 world/olympic golds and whilst Snyder has the same number one of those was in 2022 where the top guy was likely not allowed in the tournament (Sadulaev).  The Russian/Belarus ban hurts Taylor less than Dake or Snyder because the top guy at his weight (Yazdani) was unaffected.  Some may consider Snyder's 4th title slightly less significant than any of Taylor's.  I guess Sadulaev's performance at worlds this year, might debunk that line of thinking since he likely wouldn't have won worlds in 2022 wrestling like that.

A similar line of thinking could ding Dake's titles.  He won his first two at a non-Olympic weight and I think most consider World titles in non-Olympic weights less prestigious/difficult/significant than Olympic weights.  And even his titles at 74kg came when the top 2 guys either skipped worlds because it was only a few months after the COVID-delayed Olympics or their countries were banned from competing.  I'd probably rank titles at the last 5 world championships like this 2018=2019=2023>2021>2022 with Olympic weights being better than non-Olympic weights.  For Taylor's weight they are nearly all the same because the top guy wasn't banned and didn't skip.

It’s the classic pique vs longevity argument. Taylor at his best has been incredible. The same reason why John Smith is regarded as the best and higher than JB. 

[fishbane]

4 minutes ago, neweruser69 said:

The only real counterpoint would be 74KG is a much tougher class and therefore it means more. Outside of Taylor and Yazdani at 86 it's a ghosttown. But 74 is and always will be loaded. 

Yeah they were saying that on FRL the other day.  I don't know if that is true.  Yazdani and Taylor might just be that good.  Yazdani won the 2016 Olympics at 74kg he also has a world silver at 70kg.  Ghasempour took out Cox twice en route to winning two titles at 92kg.  He only has 3 career senior level losses all to Yazdani at 86kg.  Taylor beat 79kg world champ Burroughs at the Flo event and Zahid only went up to 92kg after losing to Taylor where he won a world bronze.  One might conclude that either Yazdani/Taylor would be the favorite at any weight from 74kg-92kg.

[WrestlingRasta]

I'm going to take a beating here but oh well.  

1) Bruce

2)Smith

3) Snyder

4) JB

one of the two words in 'all-time' is 'time'.  Bruce has as many olympic golds as anyone, and twice as many medals as john smith.  I want to give more to JB for ten medals and competing in the  minimal olympic weight/multi-ov era, but I can't put a guy with olympic gold and teched out of the olympics over three guys in two olympic finals and a hand full of gold medals.  Yes one of Bruce's came in '84, but his longevity and medaling over and over and over again wins it for me. If Snyder wins Paris he jumps to 1 for me.  Have to factor in Sadulaev.

5) David Taylor

6) Kyle Dake

7) Dave Schultz

8-Lee Kemp (I'm not making Lee pay for Carter's mistakes)

9)Kenny Monday

10) Chris Tayor.....come on, the guy medaled in FS, losing only to Medved on a call that got the ref dismissed from wrestling permanently...while also competing in Greco!!

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by WrestlingRasta

[billyhoyle]

3 hours ago, peanut said:

I think the label “the Olympics” normally certifies that a weight is fully loaded with the best in the world.  But world titles can be in fully loaded weights, and Olympic titles can be in non-fully loaded weights. The 1984 Olympics, for example, were not fully loaded.

Moreover — if we’re going to get into how loaded a weight was — it’s tough to compare the era of ten Olympic weights to the era of six Olympic weights. Olympic weights were once thinner all around.  

Finally, we should remember that US athletes in 1980 didn’t even have a shot at the Olympics. Arguably, Kemp should be credited for winning the 1980 Super Champions gold, where he defeated the 1980 Olympic gold medalist.

I agree with 1980 and 1984. For the sake of these type of rankings, Kemp is on par with the Olympic champions and most of the 1984 golds don’t carry as much weight (unless they won in 83 or 85 as well). 10 vs 6 Olympic weights is a good point as well, so if Taylor wins he has a strong argument for #1. I just wouldn’t put him there until he hits 2 at Olympics and 7 overall. 

2 hours ago, Eagle26 said:

I can understand a debate between ranking Dake and Taylor now. However, what is the possible justification for people putting Taylor over Snyder? Margin of victory or recency bias are the only reasons I could think of. Snyder has same number of world golds, same number of Olympic gold and more medals overall. Plus an all time great in Sadulaev that prevented him from winning a bunch more golds. And he did it all at a younger age than DT. 

For me at least it’s a bit of projection/eye test. If both of their careers ended today  you’re right I’d say Snyder should be ahead. 

2 hours ago, Luckysevens said:

If you consider Olympics to be significantly more important, how do you not rate Baumgartner higher? 

1984 and HWT being less deep of a weight. There’s a strong argument to still have him 3. 

Edited September 19, 2023 by billyhoyle

[billyhoyle]

1 hour ago, fishbane said:

I'll give it a try.  I think it has to do with Yazdani and how Taylor has consistently beaten him.  Taylor is 5-1 vs Yazdani.  If not for Taylor, Yazdani would likely have 7-8 World/Olympic titles, and his career would look at lot like Sadulaev's who has 7.  Yazdani really has been similarly dominant to Sadulaev aside from Taylor.  Yazdani has only lost 8 matches, 5 of which were to Taylor.  Sadulav has 4 career loses 1 of which was Snyder.  

Taylor is also 1-0 vs Sharifov who is 2-0 against Snyder.  

Taylor has 4 world/olympic golds and whilst Snyder has the same number one of those was in 2022 where the top guy was likely not allowed in the tournament (Sadulaev).  The Russian/Belarus ban hurts Taylor less than Dake or Snyder because the top guy at his weight (Yazdani) was unaffected.  Some may consider Snyder's 4th title slightly less significant than any of Taylor's.  I guess Sadulaev's performance at worlds this year, might debunk that line of thinking since he likely wouldn't have won worlds in 2022 wrestling like that.

A similar line of thinking could ding Dake's titles.  He won his first two at a non-Olympic weight and I think most consider World titles in non-Olympic weights less prestigious/difficult/significant than Olympic weights.  And even his titles at 74kg came when the top 2 guys either skipped worlds because it was only a few months after the COVID-delayed Olympics or their countries were banned from competing.  I'd probably rank titles at the last 5 world championships like this 2018=2019=2023>2021>2022 with Olympic weights being better than non-Olympic weights.  For Taylor's weight they are nearly all the same because the top guy wasn't banned and didn't skip.

People gloss over this point with Dake. How many years was he the best in the world at an Olympic weight? It’s not his fault that the Russian team hasn’t been able to compete, but we aren’t asking if he is a great wrestler, we’re asking if he’s top 10 of all time. We all thought he would run through the Olympics, but his loss was a reality check. 

He showed this week that he is right there with the best in the world, but I don’t think you can put him above guys like Monday, Jackson, Tom Brands, or Kemp yet. He 100% can get it done on the biggest stage. I’ll root for JB in the trials, but of the 6 that I expect to make the team, Dake is the one I’d like most to see win because of this. 

[fishbane]

14 minutes ago, billyhoyle said:

For me at least it’s a bit of projection/eye test. If both of their careers ended today  you’re right I’d say Snyder should be ahead. 

Supposing Snyder and Taylor retire today, but Sadulaev and Yazdani do not.  Sadulaev doesn't win another world level title and Yazdani wins 4 more.  4x champ Snyder.  4x champ Taylor.  7x champ Sadulaev.  8x champ Yazdani,

It's a crazy scenario that isn't going to happen, but I would probably view Taylor as the best 86kg of his generation where he overlapped with and dominated one of the greatest wrestlers of all time for a handful of years.  Snyder's legacy probably wouldn't match that even with a few more bronze and silver medals.

[Eagle26]

If we are going to do the “If not for (fill in the blank wrestler)”, why not do, if not for Sadulaev, Snyder would be indisputable GOAT American wrestler?

[ionel]

21 minutes ago, Eagle26 said:

If we are going to do the “If not for (fill in the blank wrestler)”, why not do, if not for Sadulaev, Snyder would be indisputable GOAT American wrestler?

Smith doesn't need any “If not fors."

[Eagle26]

I agree. I was making the point that we shouldn’t use that to bolster Taylor over Snyder

[ionel]

1 minute ago, Eagle26 said:

I agree. I was making the point that we shouldn’t use that to bolster Taylor over Snyder

and in fact Smith had a: if not for staph and if not for a broken hand but he didn't use them. 

[Alces Alces Gigas]

Didn't Smith win a title or two while losing a match during the tournament?    Pool system. 

[fishbane]

3 minutes ago, Alces Alces Gigas said:

Didn't Smith win a title or two while losing a match during the tournament?    Pool system. 

Yes in 1992 he lost a match and still won gold

[ionel]

6 minutes ago, Alces Alces Gigas said:

Didn't Smith win a title or two while losing a match during the tournament?    Pool system. 

 

2 minutes ago, fishbane said:

Yes in 1992 he lost a match and still won gold

But he knew that match didn't matter.  There were also times he gave up a takedown late when he didn't have to cause he knew it didn't matter, the goal was always gold.