Koll calling it like it is…

[scourge165]

On 6/15/2023 at 9:01 AM, wrestle87 said:

Yeah, folks, on all of this, let’s keep in mind this was a career move for Koll as well.  He didn’t just happen to go to one of the most sophisticated athletics departments attached to one of the top endowments in the top athletic programs at one of the top 3 Universities in the world.  Yeah, Cornell was nice, but it can’t hold a candle to the suite of offerings coming out if Stanford.

However…the issue Koll is becoming keenly aware of, as the Harvard, Princeton, and to a lesser extent Penn Columbia and Brown Coaches know, when a school is unwilling to budge much on admission criteria, certain sports teams suffer.  

Wrestling is one of the sports that requires the most of a human being mentally, physically, and time wise.  Being a successful wrestler requires that you have very little else going on in your life, including school.  As anecdotal evidence, albeit almost 15 years old at this poing, I stopped considering going D1 when a D1 coach slid a piece of paper across his desk to me and said “make sure you like this list, this is all that you can study if you come wrestle for me.” Noped out of there and non-ivy d1 recruiting from that day forward.

Excelling in the sport in the modern age requires sidestepping traditional education in a myriad of ways.  Most schools are Ok with that because athletes have never really been traditional students at 99.9% of colleges anyway.  Nowadays, a few schools still offer a degree with value beyond money.   Stanford is one of those schools.  The only catch is, you have to be smart and academically seasoned enough to complete the degree.  

This creates problems for Koll, because the by college time, the traits and priorities a kid must have for getting accepted to stanford and for being nationally competitive at wrestling are largely mutually exclusive.

That seems kinda silly. I knew plenty of athletes who were serious students on top of being athletes. 

You have no job, nothing to do and you've got 16 hours a day(if you get a good 8 hours of sleep). Your coaches told you what majors you couldn't entertain if you wanted to Wrestle?

At most, I was Wrestling 2 hours a day. I'd get a 1 workout in the morning and then maybe life for 90 minutes. That's lets say 6 hours to shower, travel. Lets say you're taking 15 credits, that's 15 hours a WEEK. So 3 a day. 9 hours. 

 

If you want to, that's PLENTY of time to study and put in the work, write papers and whatever necessary reading. I wrestled with a 3X AA who was a Math major who was a Mimbo..."male bimbo," who found PLENTY of time for extra circulars to party and screw around. 

One was a double major, History and English(plans to go to Law School) which was an exceptionally difficult program. He was a runner up and an AA.

 

It's really about time management. It's difficult, but a coach telling you these are your majors if you want to wrestle for me...probably shouldn't be a College Coach.

I brought this up in another thread, but the schedules that the service academies have, THAT makes dedicating yourself to Wrestling a bit more difficult(or any sport)...but there's so much mandatory events that go into that, it's really not comparable. 

[wrestle87]

1 hour ago, scourge165 said:

That seems kinda silly. I knew plenty of athletes who were serious students on top of being athletes. 

You have no job, nothing to do and you've got 16 hours a day(if you get a good 8 hours of sleep). Your coaches told you what majors you couldn't entertain if you wanted to Wrestle?

At most, I was Wrestling 2 hours a day. I'd get a 1 workout in the morning and then maybe life for 90 minutes. That's lets say 6 hours to shower, travel. Lets say you're taking 15 credits, that's 15 hours a WEEK. So 3 a day. 9 hours. 

 

If you want to, that's PLENTY of time to study and put in the work, write papers and whatever necessary reading. I wrestled with a 3X AA who was a Math major who was a Mimbo..."male bimbo," who found PLENTY of time for extra circulars to party and screw around. 

One was a double major, History and English(plans to go to Law School) which was an exceptionally difficult program. He was a runner up and an AA.

 

It's really about time management. It's difficult, but a coach telling you these are your majors if you want to wrestle for me...probably shouldn't be a College Coach.

I brought this up in another thread, but the schedules that the service academies have, THAT makes dedicating yourself to Wrestling a bit more difficult(or any sport)...but there's so much mandatory events that go into that, it's really not comparable. 

Agreed about the coach, that was the last conversation I had with him.  

Were you D1/2/3 NAIA? Did you pull any weight? Our heavyweights and 197’s had a grand time during the season.  Everyone else had 2x the workload making weight.  And what did you study? 

Let’s keep in mind the entire conversation is about Koll complaining because he is comparing himself to teams vying for a d1 title.  There are exceptional people who can do exceptional things, and they are impressive for it.  Relying on the exceptional is not a plan, it is a demonstrated lack of a plan.   

Academic demand, as with anything else outside of  wrestling, will always be anathema to peak excellence in wrestling, and most other sports.  If you are doing something as difficult and demanding as wrestling, you can’t be spending immense amounts of energy outside the sport, it takes too much.  The demands placed on student time at the top academic schools are infinitely higher than at your average D1 program, which is an immediate draw on time.  This is why Cornell benefits from the Ag School so much.

Similarly, kids who would consider those top three schools WANT that other thing beyond wrestling, which means comparatively, they aren’t as 100% committed as the kid who decides they don’t care about an education, they are just there to wrestle.

And with the service academies, that makes my point.  They have tremendous out of program requirements.  They will never challenge for a title because their demands are divided.

Edited June 17, 2023 by wrestle87

[Dark Energy]

6 hours ago, wrestle87 said:

Well, some kids are truly superhuman. Otherwise, look at the specific major they are signed up for.  Not all majors are the same workload.  

Cornell may also allow for transfer of credits, completion of pre-reqs and other courses for special cases with the best athletes at one of the school’s best athletic teams.  Summer enrollment, extended semesters, etc.

The successful wrestlers at big schools are meaningful members of the institution, and schools tend to do what is necessary to ensure that those who contribute to the image of the school are taken care of.

Fair.  That said, the architecture program at Cornell is (was?) a 5 year program.  The workload is (was?) legendary.  I’m pretty surprised by this.  And my level of respect has gone through the roof.  

Edited June 17, 2023 by Dark Energy

[scourge165]

2 hours ago, wrestle87 said:

Agreed about the coach, that was the last conversation I had with him.  

Were you D1/2/3 NAIA? Did you pull any weight? Our heavyweights and 197’s had a grand time during the season.  Everyone else had 2x the workload making weight.  And what did you study? 

Let’s keep in mind the entire conversation is about Koll complaining because he is comparing himself to teams vying for a d1 title.  There are exceptional people who can do exceptional things, and they are impressive for it.  Relying on the exceptional is not a plan, it is a demonstrated lack of a plan.   

Academic demand, as with anything else outside of  wrestling, will always be anathema to peak excellence in wrestling, and most other sports.  If you are doing something as difficult and demanding as wrestling, you can’t be spending immense amounts of energy outside the sport, it takes too much.  The demands placed on student time at the top academic schools are infinitely higher than at your average D1 program, which is an immediate draw on time.  This is why Cornell benefits from the Ag School so much.

Similarly, kids who would consider those top three schools WANT that other thing beyond wrestling, which means comparatively, they aren’t as 100% committed as the kid who decides they don’t care about an education, they are just there to wrestle.

And with the service academies, that makes my point.  They have tremendous out of program requirements.  They will never challenge for a title because their demands are divided.

D1

Yes, I pulled a lot of weight. About 30 pounds from the off-season...but I settled in to a routine. 10 over on a Monday, 6 over on Wed, drink a lot of Water Thursday, but no food and then nothing until weigh-ins with a couple workouts. 

My academic demands were pretty significant. I choose my school for a particular degree. Though, my coach did encourage me to get another degree that was...VERY easy(So I got both). 

I also had great teammates/coaches that would let me mis a practice(which I'd try and make up on my own, but wasn't the same)...and the show up at 7AM the next morning and 4-5 guys would be there, with the coaches and I'd get a full practice in. They did that a couple days a week anyway, but all I had to do was ask and they just shows up.

 

Quote

Similarly, kids who would consider those top three schools WANT that other thing beyond wrestling, which means comparatively, they aren’t as 100% committed as the kid who decides they don’t care about an education, they are just there to wrestle.

I can't even begin to articulate how ridiculous I think this is.

 

Quote

And with the service academies, that makes my point.  They have tremendous out of program requirements.  They will never challenge for a title because their demands are divided.

Wyatt Hendrickson JUST took a 3rd and you've had...6-7 who's been in the finals or top 2 in the not too distant past.

 

So even there, where it's objectively more difficult, it's possible. 

 

But to say if you have a difficult degree that's time consuming, you don't care as much about Wrestling, well...that's just REALLY ridiculous and...might reflect on you more than other Wrestlers.

Every year you see a guy in the finals who's majority in Organic Chemistry or a very time consuming major.

Again, you have SO much time off during school even with Wrestling. If you can just simply manage your time...

Well, Shane Griffith pretty clearly disproves this theory.

 

You can ABSOLUTELY focus on a difficult degree and an NCAA Title.

You can also focus on spending 5-6 hours a day with your buddies playing video games or going out and drinking and partying.

You can do 2 of those. You CANNOT do all 3. But in a non-service school, you can absolutely do two of the three. Your choice which 2 you'd like to do.

Edited June 17, 2023 by scourge165

[BerniePragle]

It really depends on the kid.  Our younger daughter swam in HS and college, very time consuming.  She actually kept her nose to the grindstone academically better during swim season than during the off-season.  She knew she had to budget her time better.  
I would guess that most coaches, or mom and dads, could free up between 7 and 70 hours per week for their student simply by burning their telephone.

A very good friend of mine actually graduated from the Architecture school at Cornell 50+ years ago.  The first time we ever went up there together we got there a few hours before the match and I got a guided tour of the architecture of Cornell's buildings.  That was very cool.

Some kids spend their time studying, some spend a lot of time doing or thinking about other things:
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/10/31/561217424/after-20-years-can-cornell-finally-bust-open-its-great-pumpkin-mystery

If I ever knew who did this, I would hire them in an instant to work for me though.  Those thinkers are rare.

[Tom formerly Tofurky]

On 6/15/2023 at 11:31 AM, Idaho said:

Good point... 

I was looking at the other side of the spectrum at JC schools. I was surprised that Iowa had more JC schools with wrestling than any other state.  Iowa has 6, Minnesota 5 and Kansas 4. This is outside of California of course, which has there own system of JC schools. Way more opportunities for kids in those states to wrestle  and for D1 talent that needs a year to get grades and scores up in order to transfer (along with a myriad of other reasons). 

https://www.njcaa.org/member_colleges/directory/members - for your reference

Kansas has eight NJCAA programs.

[Idaho]

39 minutes ago, Tom formerly Tofurky said:

https://www.njcaa.org/member_colleges/directory/members - for your reference

Kansas has eight NJCAA programs.

I think those are member colleges. I believe 4 have wrestling programs 

https://www.ncsasports.org/mens-wrestling/junior-colleges

[Tom formerly Tofurky]

36 minutes ago, Idaho said:

I think those are member colleges. I believe 4 have wrestling programs 

https://www.ncsasports.org/mens-wrestling/junior-colleges

If you choose wrestling in the last drop down, it shows all programs with men's wrestling.

[Idaho]

1 hour ago, Tom formerly Tofurky said:

If you choose wrestling in the last drop down, it shows all programs with men's wrestling.

Thanks for the update... that's interesting. NCSA is usually pretty good with info.  I had no clue some of those schools had wrestling. Some only have a  handful on their roster. Well... 8 it is for Kansas. 

[Tom formerly Tofurky]

1 hour ago, Idaho said:

Thanks for the update... that's interesting. NCSA is usually pretty good with info.  I had no clue some of those schools had wrestling. Some only have a  handful on their roster. Well... 8 it is for Kansas. 

I worked for NCSA within the last year, and I can tell you first hand that they aren't always on the ball.

Your best bet is to always head directly to the source and take the time to root around for the answer.

That said, the NJCAA site didn't list Pratt CC among their teams with wrestling, and they just finished as team national runner-ups this past season.