The 4 Timers - Pat, Cael, Logan, Kyle & Yianni

[Jamie_Taco]

1 hour ago, Perry said:

Times placing 6th at ncaas lee: 1 cox: zero.

Not playing hypotheticals on the "covid year". Excuses are for wusses and Lee lost because Ramos was the better wrestler (his words)

So first it was competition, now it's because J'den's 5th place is better than Spencer's 6th place. Still waiting for you to answer my "J'den's best college wins" answer..

[AgaveMaria]

1 hour ago, Plasmodium said:

I think it is crazy to allow kids who aren't in HS to wrestle in HS.   IIRC, KY and FLA go all the way down to 6th grade.

Some States don't have the population. Our nearest school closed two years ago. Kids could pick three towns to go to depending on which might be closer.

As it is the next closest now partners with three other schools for some sports. Not enough kids for a full football program so they play 9 man. Western part of the State they play 6 man.

Eligibility for HS sports starts in 7th grade. At that some schools are hard pressed to field a full basketball team and some do not have wrestling at all.

[Plasmodium]

25 minutes ago, AgaveMaria said:

Some States don't have the population. Our nearest school closed two years ago. Kids could pick three towns to go to depending on which might be closer.

As it is the next closest now partners with three other schools for some sports. Not enough kids for a full football program so they play 9 man. Western part of the State they play 6 man.

Eligibility for HS sports starts in 7th grade. At that some schools are hard pressed to field a full basketball team and some do not have wrestling at all.

My state (CO) also has 6 man football and hours distance between the schools.  Do the rural schools that combine to form a team hold practice at their respective schools and form their teams at competitions?

Only  HS students are  allowed in sports, but pretty liberal otherwise.  Homeschooled can participate at school of choice (not a fan).  If your school doesn't sponsor a sport, play wherever you want.  For that matter, you can generally attend any school you want.

Edited April 26, 2023 by Plasmodium

[Perry]

1 hour ago, Jamie_Taco said:

So first it was competition, now it's because J'den's 5th place is better than Spencer's 6th place. Still waiting for you to answer my "J'den's best college wins" answer..

I already brought up his freestyle wins over Taylor and dake while he was in college. Lee has nothing close to that to brag about.

[BigRedFan]

4 hours ago, mspart said:

Well, I remember HS was only 3 seasons, 10-12.   But then I read about Lincoln McIlravy winning 5 HS titles.   I've always wondered about that.   A true demon in 8th grade. 

mspart

I give you Brandon Womack's Alabama HS stats:

 A six-time state champion at Scottboro HS, Womack was a four-time team captain.
• Was named the state's Most Outstanding Wrestler five times.
• Graduated with a 422-8 record, with five of his losses coming as a seventh grader.
• Was a perfect 77-0 as a senior, the most wins in an undefeated season in state history.
• In all, 327 of his 422 wins came by fall.
• Won the senior 160-pound division at the National High School Coaches Association national championships as a senior.
• Holds state and national records for pins in a season (68).
• Posted a 190-match win streak during his career.
• Has four of the top six single-season win totals in state history, including a record 85 wins as a sophomore.

[scourge165]

11 hours ago, 11986 said:

regarding Pat Smith, just as he was the 1st to win 4 NCAA titles, it was also not as common in his era for guys to win 4 HS titles. It was getting more common by then, but still not like now, and if you go back 5-10 years from there it was still a pretty big deal.

Funny I had thought of posting about guys who won more NCAA titles than HS state championships. Some recent discussion on Jim Zalesky made me think about when I looked up his bio. 2 time HS champ in Iowa, 3 time NCAA champ at Iowa with a much better overall record in college than HS

Lee Kemp...he was a 2X State Champ and 3X NC.

So many of those guys just didn't start until HS. Just the idea that you didn't have many clubs is kinda strange when looking back. 

[Wrestleknownothing]

1 hour ago, BigRedFan said:

I give you Brandon Womack's Alabama HS stats:

 A six-time state champion at Scottboro HS, Womack was a four-time team captain.
• Was named the state's Most Outstanding Wrestler five times.
• Graduated with a 422-8 record, with five of his losses coming as a seventh grader.
• Was a perfect 77-0 as a senior, the most wins in an undefeated season in state history.
• In all, 327 of his 422 wins came by fall.
• Won the senior 160-pound division at the National High School Coaches Association national championships as a senior.
• Holds state and national records for pins in a season (68).
• Posted a 190-match win streak during his career.
• Has four of the top six single-season win totals in state history, including a record 85 wins as a sophomore.

I am not sure what to think about 430 matches in 6 years. Almost 72 matches per year. Sure they ended fast so its not like it was a ton of minutes, but seems too much.

What is normal for that age range (13-18?)?

[scourge165]

11 hours ago, PSUSMC said:

All of those mentioned had better careers than Lee.  *SL was wrestling midgets, runts, 18 year olds and guys on hormone blockers to keep their weight down.

Not even a close comparison to competing against wrestlers at grown man weights!

 

* this isn't true, but it was funny when I thought of it...

LOL...there are people who believe winning at 125 is not as impressive as winning at a more...normal weight. 

I don't think that's neccesarily the case(or worth arguing). But Lee had 6 losses and took a 6th as a SR. 

Why is it so silly to put him beneath Nolf, Nickal, Zain or Cox?

It's obviously subjective. Would it be less Silly if Lee had lost earlier in his career and people didn't just assume he'd win?

 

If you think Lee's the best...ok. I can see that argument. If you think 4 guys with 30-40 more wins and fewer loses and the same number of NCs are so far behind him it's comical...well, I can't see that. Cox beat Snyder, maybe the best Wrestler of our era the one year he didn't win it.
 

It's a subjective ranking. 

[Plasmodium]

There are others Lincoln McIlravy, Joe Williams, Lee Kemp.  Spencer Lee is down the line, unbelievable as that may be.

[mspart]

Mark Schultz started wrestling as a Junior in HS.   Won CA state his senior year.   3 Time NCAA champ.   Oly champ and 2 time World Champ.  

mspart

[PSUSMC]

13 hours ago, scourge165 said:

LOL...there are people who believe winning at 125 is not as impressive as winning at a more...normal weight. 

I don't think that's neccesarily the case(or worth arguing). But Lee had 6 losses and took a 6th as a SR. 

Why is it so silly to put him beneath Nolf, Nickal, Zain or Cox?

It's obviously subjective. Would it be less Silly if Lee had lost earlier in his career and people didn't just assume he'd win?

 

If you think Lee's the best...ok. I can see that argument. If you think 4 guys with 30-40 more wins and fewer loses and the same number of NCs are so far behind him it's comical...well, I can't see that. Cox beat Snyder, maybe the best Wrestler of our era the one year he didn't win it.
 

It's a subjective ranking. 

I'm good with the rankings/list WKN illustrated.  The numbers reflect(ed) actual results, not opinion.

Plus, as a 57kg guy, I like to make fun of the 125 weight class (midgets, runts, etc)! 

Regarding Spenser Lee, he had a fantastic career at Iowa and being characterized as the 6th amongst the 6 listed is not an insult.

Of note, he is Tom Brands 1st 3-timer, which is impressive.

Also impressive is that - I believe - Cael Sanderson, in 14 seasons at Penn State, has coached as many 3 timers as Dan Gable and Tom Brands have combined at Iowa.

That's not a shot at Coaches Gable or Brands (it can't be, their results speak for themselves), just recognition to/for Cael Sanderson.

[ionel]

2 hours ago, mspart said:

Mark Schultz started wrestling as a Junior in HS.   Won CA state his senior year.   3 Time NCAA champ.   Oly champ and 2 time World Champ.  

mspart

So ... are you saying he wasn't a 4 timer?  

[scourge165]

12 hours ago, ionel said:

So ... are you saying he wasn't a 4 timer?  

And again, the FIRST tournament Schultz won in High School...was the State Tournament. 32-8 going in.