PSU Best Ever vs Iowa Best Ever - who wins?

[MPhillips]

Source matters.

[Threadkilla]

4 hours ago, cangemi said:

Why is Nickal not a coin flip with Campbell.?

 

Gable said Campbell was the best he ever coached.  

[PortaJohn]

35 minutes ago, Phantom said:

Recency bias is a powerful thing...

No, it's facts.  Modern day wrestlers are much better

[AgaveMaria]

5 hours ago, gimpeltf said:

Neither Gable went to Iowa or PSU.

Coaches wrestle.

Cael should win - but remember that Gable would go with Chris Campbell and said it was 50/50 - so maybe he would last to the second period before getting pinned or a Tech Fall?

[Gus]

29 minutes ago, Threadkilla said:

Gable said Campbell was the best he ever coached.  

Didn’t Campbell go a long time without suffering a takedown?

[Phantom]

30 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

No, it's facts.  Modern day wrestlers are much better

 Sure..Athletes, along with the many sports have obviously evolved.  Basic fundamentals in wrestling has existed for a long time, and they will always work. 

When does modern day start? Is Cael modern day?

Edited April 2, 2023 by Phantom

[ionel]

31 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

No, it's facts.  Modern day wrestlers are much better

Schultz & Sheets would tear a "modern day" wrestler's arm or leg off.

[KCMO2]

49 minutes ago, Phantom said:

 Sure..Athletes, along with the many sports have obviously evolved.  Basic fundamentals in wrestling has existed for a long time, and they will always work. 

 

Modern day scrambling would leave a lot of the old schoolers pulling their hair out.

[Gus]

The only way to judge these type of cross generation debates is to compare results against their contemporaries. While a middling wrestler nowadays might destroy a champion wrestler of yesteryear, you have to take a nuanced look and think that the champion wrestler of the pst would evolve if placed in the present day. 

[PortaJohn]

1 hour ago, Phantom said:

 Sure..Athletes, along with the many sports have obviously evolved.  Basic fundamentals in wrestling has existed for a long time, and they will always work. 

When does modern day start? Is Cael modern day?

No, Cael is not modern day. The crop of wrestlers starting in the late first decade of the 2000 changed what we see today

[PortaJohn]

58 minutes ago, ionel said:

Schultz & Sheets would tear a "modern day" wrestler's arm or leg off.

No they wouldn't.  With the skills they had in their era they'd be lucky to AA in the modern era

[Perry]

Senior megaludis would defeat freshman and senior Lee for sure. Sophomore Lee is maybe 50/50 and junior Lee is favored but still has a tiny gas tank. 

[Threadkilla]

21 minutes ago, Perry said:

Senior megaludis would defeat freshman and senior Lee for sure. Sophomore Lee is maybe 50/50 and junior Lee is favored but still has a tiny gas tank. 

 It's a pretty bold statement..  They went to the same HS.  Megaludis knew how good Lee was and tried to recruit him to PSU.   Mega lost to Joey Dance who had a similar style to Lee but wasn't as good.   

[Perry]

16 minutes ago, Threadkilla said:

 It's a pretty bold statement..  They went to the same HS.  Megaludis knew how good Lee was and tried to recruit him to PSU.   Mega lost to Joey Dance who had a similar style to Lee but wasn't as good.   

Lee lost to piccinnini

[Matthew Burns]

8 hours ago, PortaJohn said:

Penn State would rip through that Iowa lineup after the lightweights except if Iowa started sophomore year Mocco

David Taylor's loses came from matchups where he was bullied; Dake and Jenkins. Joe Williams certainly fits that mold.

Nolf's losses are to Isiah Martinez who was freakishly strong in his stance, an analog for Zalesky.

From neutral I'll take McIlravy all day over Retherford. Train will have to score his points on the mat, but that's his wheelhouse.

I was hopeful that a few guys would actually talk strengths, weaknesses, and matchups. The whole " modern wrestlers are vastly superior" argument doesn't hold water. That's no my opinion, but the words of modern wrestlers. The whole "coach still kicks everyone's tail" is a common story; Sanderson, Brands, Bono, Zeke, all still schooling the young bucks.

 

[scourge165]

4 minutes ago, Matthew Burns said:

David Taylor's loses came from matchups where he was bullied; Dake and Jenkins. Joe Williams certainly fits that mold.

Nolf's losses are to Isiah Martinez who was freakishly strong in his stance, an analog for Zalesky.

From neutral I'll take McIlravy all day over Retherford. Train will have to score his points on the mat, but that's his wheelhouse.

I was hopeful that a few guys would actually talk strengths, weaknesses, and matchups. The whole " modern wrestlers are vastly superior" argument doesn't hold water. That's no my opinion, but the words of modern wrestlers. The whole "coach still kicks everyone's tail" is a common story; Sanderson, Brands, Bono, Zeke, all still schooling the young bucks.

 

Iowa won a LOT of matches by just wearing guys down...particularly the Brands brothers, Ironside, Stieners and Mcllravy. He won...what, 16-15 in the finals after going down big to Gerry Abas(who gassed). 

I don't think PSU guys would have been gassing. Mcllravy isn't wearing Zain out IMO. 

 

2 hours ago, Gus said:

The only way to judge these type of cross generation debates is to compare results against their contemporaries. While a middling wrestler nowadays might destroy a champion wrestler of yesteryear, you have to take a nuanced look and think that the champion wrestler of the pst would evolve if placed in the present day. 

No question. Again, I was just talking to a 2X Champ from the early 90s about this and he's the first to admit how much better the technique is today...but in what sport is this not true?

Iowa bullied, out-worked and just intimidated(in the best possible ways) a lot of guys during Gable's runs in the 80s and 90s. I don't see that happening to the PSU guys listed.

 

This is a fun question, but...how do you even measure it. Joe Williams vs David Taylor? I think Taylor would be too much for him in the scrambles. The point was made he lost matches because he got bullied. He lost to two different Wrestlers. Jenkins...who really didn't bully Taylor, Taylor got beat by his own technique. And then Dake who Taylor had one of the great finals matches against and I wouldn't say he was bullied. I'd just say Dake's the 2nd best College Wrestler since Wrestlers were allowed to Wrestle all 4 years.

 

 

 

[Husker_Du]

gimme Ed Ruth instead of Carter (at least for the moment)

Alger over some dude from the 40's that Cinnaboner credited with an extra title.

Also consider Prescott (2xer) at 125 for PSU but he was small.

 

[scourge165]

12 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

gimme Ed Ruth instead of Carter (at least for the moment)

Alger over some dude from the 40's that Cinnaboner credited with an extra title.

Also consider Prescott (2xer) at 125 for PSU but he was small.

 

What about Ironside at 141? 

He went 6/3/1/1 IIRC. Won the Hodge in '98. 4X B1G Champ, 4X AA(6/3/1/1). Lost a couple very close matches to St. John in the Semis. 

 

These are some amazing lineups...whatever tweaks you may make. There is a very reasonable case to be made to put Ruth in there over Starocci(or Brooks).

Same with a couple Hawkeyes. 

[PortaJohn]

6 hours ago, Matthew Burns said:

David Taylor's loses came from matchups where he was bullied; Dake and Jenkins. Joe Williams certainly fits that mold.

Bullied?  He got beat by one move against Jenkins and loss 3 close matches to Dake in one year.  You're rewriting history.

 

6 hours ago, Matthew Burns said:

Nolf's losses are to Isiah Martinez who was freakishly strong in his stance, an analog for Zalesky.

We're using freshman year Nolf as a reference?  Ok.  Sorry to break it to you freshman year Zalesky had 5 losses & placed 5th.

6 hours ago, Matthew Burns said:

From neutral I'll take McIlravy all day over Retherford. Train will have to score his points on the mat, but that's his wheelhouse.

My take from the beginning was that PSU would win every bout after 149 unless Iowa wrestled sophomore year Mocco

6 hours ago, Matthew Burns said:

I was hopeful that a few guys would actually talk strengths, weaknesses, and matchups. The whole " modern wrestlers are vastly superior" argument doesn't hold water. That's no my opinion, but the words of modern wrestlers. The whole "coach still kicks everyone's tail" is a common story; Sanderson, Brands, Bono, Zeke, all still schooling the young bucks.

No they're not.  

[11986]

5 hours ago, scourge165 said:

What about Ironside at 141? 

He went 6/3/1/1 IIRC. Won the Hodge in '98. 4X B1G Champ, 4X AA(6/3/1/1). Lost a couple very close matches to St. John in the Semis. 

 

These are some amazing lineups...whatever tweaks you may make. There is a very reasonable case to be made to put Ruth in there over Starocci(or Brooks).

Same with a couple Hawkeyes. 

Ironside was great and as a 134 should be considered for the new adjusted weight of 141. Except Tom Brands as a 3x champ at 134 should be the 141.

so maybe....

125 Lee

133 Barry Davis

141 Tom Brands

149 Metcalf

157 Lincoln 

165 Zalesky

174 Joe Williams

184 Campbell or Alger

197 Ed Banach

Hvy Lou Banach 

 

[Zahnarzt]

Interesting to note that 9 out of 10 in the all-time PSU lineup wrested under Cael’s tutelage.  I’m not knowledgeable when you go back pre-1990’s…How many of Iowa’s lineup listed here were coached by Gable?  Everyone except Lee?  If so, perfect example of the effect these 2 legends have had on their protégés. 

[Zahnarzt]

16 hours ago, flyingcement said:

Cyclones could put out a good team as well

Post your all-time ISU lineup and let’s see how they would stack up.  Would be interesting to see an all-time lineup from OkSt as well, maybe a few others. 

[Pinnacle]

Today's wrestlers utilizing Cael's techniques have displaced Iowa style. Imo, PSU would win most of the weights regardless of the names of the wrestlers. 

[Eagle26]

I agree with the sentiment that you can’t give extra credit to the more “modern” wrestlers because of technical advances in the sport. Iowa was dominant and innovative under Gable and they would find a way to have the same success today. That said I still favor Penn State at 157 and up. I think Iowa wins 149 and under. Interesting how it is split because Iowa still seems to be producing better in the lightweights and Penn State is dominating middle and upper weights.

[D3 for LU]

In all this comparative excitement of match ups and era's, weigh in, styles and such... who in all would ultimately would win here?

 

... why the fans, of course!

(Now, what about which fans from the 50's-60's per the 70's & 80's that would bring the house down w/ all this ultimate matchups? THAT's another story altogether.  )

D3

Edited April 2, 2023 by D3 for LU