Cornell with 2 4xers Before PSU/Iowa have 1

[Doublehalf]

I think it's worth noting how impressive it is for an Ivy school to have 2 4xers out of the 5 given the difficulty of recruiting top talent vs non Ivy. We can talk about the school of agriculture all we want but the lack of redshirting amongst other aspects make this really quite unbelievable...

especially with all the success Iowa has had historically and PSU more recently, the fact that Mike Grey has a 4 timer before Cael is pretty wild and I hope they get a lot more looks from blue chip recruits around the country. They've more than proven they can take athletes  and develop them and get them over the top with what I would view as less resources.

Hats off to Cornell and can't wait for them to win a team trophy hopefully not in the too distant future.

[SocraTease]

The 4-timer stuff is so compromised and fetishized.   

It doesn't account for the level of competition and other variables.

A 3-timer like Nolf (who only barely lost in the finals to an NCAA champ his freshman year whom he earlier pinned)  is actually better than a 4-timer like Yianni.  And he was absolutely more dominant than Yianni or Dake.

Steiber won some finals he arguably should not have given the calls.  

Luck, draws, and other factors play so much of a role. 

Most people are only capable of thinking in terms of simple causality.   The world doesn't work that way. 

It's a mental blindness of the worst kind and attributable in large part to evolutionary psychology.

[Doublehalf]

You can have your opinions but since you bring up luck and draws etc... I distinctly remember a questionable call going Nolfs way to make it back to the finals against I believe Hidlay... yes he was dominant but he couldn't and didn't win 4.... and for what it's worth, Yianni and Dake did it as actual true freshman without a redshirt. Not sure why you would want to diminish that accomplishment:..

 

 

[flyingcement]

Arujau beat the socks of RBY.  Amazing performance 

[SocraTease]

1 minute ago, Doublehalf said:

You can have your opinions but since you bring up luck and draws etc... I distinctly remember a questionable call going Nolfs way to make it back to the finals against I believe Hidlay... yes he was dominant but he couldn't and didn't win 4.... and for what it's worth, Yianni and Dake did it as actual true freshman without a redshirt. Not sure why you would want to diminish that accomplishment:..

 

 

I'm not trying to diminish their accomplishments. They have wrestled at extremely high levels and should be commended and celebrated.

Yianni had 2 years off though, right?   Dake won so many close matches.  He was nowhere near as dominant overall as DT, whom (yes) he beat in close matches.  

But Taylor (who won 2 titles) is absolutely a better wrestler overall than four timers like Pat Smith, Steiber, and (so far) Yianni.   In fact, I would say he has surpassed even Sanderson.

Same thing could be said about Boroughs, who "only" won two titles.  

Or even Spencer Lee.  Much more dominant than Yianni.   Cornell doesn't wrestle the level of competition that the Big Ten faces.

My point: the four timer focus is not the sole or absolute measure of greatness.

Yes, luck figures into it.  A very large swath of people (especially religious, conservative, anti-scientific folks) like simple solutions and explanations.  They over-emphasize personal control (responsibility) and downplay or ignore all the conditions and contributing factors that are outside our control.   

Wade Schalles (a great wrestler and very creative, fierce mind) recently pointed out (honestly and frankly) in an interview with Mark Bader that wrestlers are not the smartest lot as a whole.  They are like football players academically (or worse) and in other ways.  And he was right in terms of the data.  And, I would add, my own observations for what small worth they might be.

Yes, there are exceptions, but they prove the rule.  

 

 

 

[dragit]

1 hour ago, Doublehalf said:

Hats off to Cornell and can't wait for them to win a team trophy hopefully not in the too distant future.

Among the many remarkable aspects of their performance was that they took the third place team trophy.  And i really think there's an even chance they could win a championship before Grey retires.  They've been close before and they keep bringing in strong recruiting classes. With a little of the luck mentioned elsewhere on this thread (such as all the airports in Pennsylvania shutting down the third week of March) maybe they can get over the top just once.  

[skandar]

Lolololol at Socratese. What’s your point? You’re creating arguments against points that weren’t even being argued. Nolf was more “dominant”? So what? Yianni is already more accomplished at the senior level than Nolf. DT was more dominant than Dake? So what? He choked with the lights on as a redshirt freshman then lost to the younger Dake(who won as a true freshman). Don’t you think DT would trade some of his “dominant” college wins for two more titles?

What point are you trying to make? Cornell has two 4 timers. PSU and Iowa have zero. That’s not arguable. Everyone knows it takes a little luck and staying healthy to do it. That’s not breaking news.

It is weird that Doublehalf claims Mike Grey has a 4 timer when Yianni had multiple titles before Grey ever took over though. All of Cornell’s AAs were Koll recruits actually.

[Theo Brixton]

I have to agree with @SocraTease's sentiment. Peak performance is as/more important than sustained excellence to determine GOAT status. To win 4 titles without a truly dominant season against run-of-the-mill competition rings hollow. And while sustained excellence might suggest truly outstanding performances within that reign, that isn't always the case. Jordan Burroughs's 2011 season was more impressive than any that Yianni, Steiber, Smith and possibly Dake had. Pure domination in a competitive weight class and then went on to win Worlds in a stacked weight with a horrible draw without much beyond his folk style skillset. 

[skandar]

14 minutes ago, Theo Brixton said:

I have to agree with @SocraTease's sentiment. Peak performance is as/more important than sustained excellence to determine GOAT status. To win 4 titles without a truly dominant season against run-of-the-mill competition rings hollow. And while sustained excellence might suggest truly outstanding performances within that reign, that isn't always the case. Jordan Burroughs's 2011 season was more impressive than any that Yianni, Steiber, Smith and possibly Dake had. Pure domination in a competitive weight class and then went on to win Worlds in a stacked weight with a horrible draw without much beyond his folk style skillset. 

Who cares? That’s purely subjective and wasn’t the point of this post. This isn’t about who had the most impressive single season or whose peak was the highest. Guarantee Jordan would trade part of 2011 dominance for 2 more titles though; assuming everything else stayed the same.
 

Cornell has two wrestlers that are more accomplished at the college level than anyone in the history of PSU or Iowa. That’s a fact.

[billyhoyle]

2 hours ago, Doublehalf said:

I think it's worth noting how impressive it is for an Ivy school to have 2 4xers out of the 5 given the difficulty of recruiting top talent vs non Ivy. We can talk about the school of agriculture all we want but the lack of redshirting amongst other aspects make this really quite unbelievable...

especially with all the success Iowa has had historically and PSU more recently, the fact that Mike Grey has a 4 timer before Cael is pretty wild and I hope they get a lot more looks from blue chip recruits around the country. They've more than proven they can take athletes  and develop them and get them over the top with what I would view as less resources.

Hats off to Cornell and can't wait for them to win a team trophy hopefully not in the too distant future.

4 of the 5 4xers (Pat Smith, Dake, Yianni, and Stieber) wrestled in state at their marquee university.  Cael was the only 4xer to really have a wide-open recruiting situation (Utah to ISU).  Cornell has been getting a lot of the top NY talent since Nickerson, and they continue to do so.  I don't view this as a recruiting thing, and more that Cornell has some great coaches and there has been incredible talent out of NY. 

 

Also...Pretty sure Cael is about to get a 4xer. 

Edited March 19, 2023 by billyhoyle

[Theo Brixton]

12 minutes ago, skandar said:

Who cares? That’s purely subjective and wasn’t the point of this post. This isn’t about who had the most impressive single season or whose peak was the highest. Guarantee Jordan would trade part of 2011 dominance for 2 more titles though; assuming everything else stayed the same.
 

Cornell has two wrestlers that are more accomplished at the college level than anyone in the history of PSU or Iowa. That’s a fact.

Pretty sure that Burroughs would not trade for two more NCAA titles if it meant his skillset at graduation was similar to the other 4-timers, sans Sanderson. I can guarantee Burroughs likes his 7 world/Olympic titles far more than two extra NCAA titles. Which is the point made by Socratease. Despite having "only" 2 NCAA titles, he achieved a higher level of wrestling while in college than any 4-timer with the exception of possibly Sanderson.

Great for Cornell. They were able to get two recruits who were outstanding from the start and developed them. No freshman redshirt. Might have something similar with Shapiro next year. But the point stands that the obsession with 4 might be a little misguided as a metric to define overall greatness.

 

[BigRedFan]

1 hour ago, Theo Brixton said:

I have to agree with @SocraTease's sentiment. Peak performance is as/more important than sustained excellence to determine GOAT status. To win 4 titles without a truly dominant season against run-of-the-mill competition rings hollow. And while sustained excellence might suggest truly outstanding performances within that reign, that isn't always the case. Jordan Burroughs's 2011 season was more impressive than any that Yianni, Steiber, Smith and possibly Dake had. Pure domination in a competitive weight class and then went on to win Worlds in a stacked weight with a horrible draw without much beyond his folk style skillset. 

You know what is dominant?  Beating everyone.  Only Sanderson has done it better than Yianni.  Dominant is never losing in the NCAA tournament, and your conference tournament, and your league, and every tournament you ever entered in college.  Yianni could only beat those in front of him ("run-of-the-mill competition").  His freshman year run through Heil, Eierman, and Meredith was as difficult as anyone's.

Pretty sure that what anyone achieved in freestyle has f*** all to do with the 4x NCAA champion achievement.

[jackwebster]

4 hours ago, SocraTease said:

The 4-timer stuff is so compromised and fetishized.   

It doesn't account for the level of competition and other variables.

A 3-timer like Nolf (who only barely lost in the finals to an NCAA champ his freshman year whom he earlier pinned)  is actually better than a 4-timer like Yianni.  And he was absolutely more dominant than Yianni or Dake.

Steiber won some finals he arguably should not have given the calls.  

Luck, draws, and other factors play so much of a role. 

Most people are only capable of thinking in terms of simple causality.   The world doesn't work that way. 

It's a mental blindness of the worst kind and attributable in large part to evolutionary psychology.

Except everyone Yianni beat would have been a champ had he not been there.

[jackwebster]

4 hours ago, SocraTease said:

The 4-timer stuff is so compromised and fetishized.   

It doesn't account for the level of competition and other variables.

A 3-timer like Nolf (who only barely lost in the finals to an NCAA champ his freshman year whom he earlier pinned)  is actually better than a 4-timer like Yianni.  And he was absolutely more dominant than Yianni or Dake.

Steiber won some finals he arguably should not have given the calls.  

Luck, draws, and other factors play so much of a role. 

Most people are only capable of thinking in terms of simple causality.   The world doesn't work that way. 

It's a mental blindness of the worst kind and attributable in large part to evolutionary psychology.

I think what happened to Lee, Gable, and almost to Smith shows exactly how difficult it is to get to four. It means your miracle scrambles have to outnumber your head scratching mistakes over and over again... 5×5×5×5 times. Plus, your moments of thumos have to outnumber your moments of indecision 5×5×5×5 times. Your moments of rub some dirt on it have to outnumber your career-ending injuries 5×5×5×5 times, etc.

Edited March 19, 2023 by jackwebster

[scourge165]

5 hours ago, SocraTease said:

The 4-timer stuff is so compromised and fetishized.   

It doesn't account for the level of competition and other variables.

A 3-timer like Nolf (who only barely lost in the finals to an NCAA champ his freshman year whom he earlier pinned)  is actually better than a 4-timer like Yianni.  And he was absolutely more dominant than Yianni or Dake.

Steiber won some finals he arguably should not have given the calls.  

Luck, draws, and other factors play so much of a role. 

Most people are only capable of thinking in terms of simple causality.   The world doesn't work that way. 

It's a mental blindness of the worst kind and attributable in large part to evolutionary psychology.

I largely agree with this, but no, Stieber did not win any finals he should not have "given the calls." That was  a point of emphasis that year. "The one" we're talking about vs Oliver, was specifically talked about at the coaches meetings and you needed to get your head out and being below the knees was not a TD. They changed the rule, but Stieber knew it, JO knew it and there's a reason why John Smith didn't argueit that hard. He knew he'd lost.

 

It'd be a TD today(and I believe even the next year)...but it was NOT one that year. And if you play that game...SO many matches chance. Mcllravy taking Marienettti to his back out of bounds(with Mcllravy still in bounds). Using scoring now and applying it to older matches and a LOT of outcomes are different.

 

I do agree that 4X Champs are fetishized(not compromised though...not sure what that means) and that it doesn't account for other variables. 100% on that.

And also worth pointing out, it'd be shocking if PSU doesn't have 4NCs by the end of next year....and maybe a 5X Champ the following year.

[Doublehalf]

This is hilarious.... for the people arguing "yeah but there are other factors like luck of the draw for 4xers...." are we forgetting Covid is playing a huge role in PSU possibly getting 4xers? An entire conference had to sit out a year that NCAAs took place... 

 

another comment- "Yianni took 2 years off" unbelievable... yeah he was just sitting around for two years. The guy was taking Olympic redshirts and couldn't control a once in a century pandemic and the Ivys choice not to participate. Yianni has spent more time than probably any other champ the last 2 years working on a completely different style of wrestling and took home a world silver at an Olympic weight. 
 

Some on here are very much talking out of both sides of their mouth which completey undermines the points they are trying to make. 
 

in 30 years no one is going to give a shit that Nolf had a lot of bonus points or that Yianni didn't have quite as many, but fans will always know who won 4... Most sports fans don't know Jordan's stats but they remember he rattled off 6 championships...

Edited March 19, 2023 by Doublehalf

[Dark Energy]

What you see are people rationalizing why ‘others’ achieved what their team did not.  Natural.  
 

That said, many fair points. Luck, opponents, health, etc. play a big role.  No doubt.  FOR EVERYONE.  Makes the likelihood very low for all wrestlers.  It is interesting that Cornell has 2 already when so many others have 0 and no one else has 2.  

[D3UC157]

To be a four-timer you have to win as a Freshman, has the college program put in the instant development to get them there or have they already come in as an incredible talent?

In that case it’s more personal decisions of where to go to school.

Just so happens 2 guys picked Cornell.

It’s neat that they have 2 and the big guys only have 1 or 0. 
 

The four-timer thing is impressive and also circumstantial for most. Weight class, opponents, upsets, rule changes(I’m looking at you Logan), redshirts/Grey shirts/Olympic Shirts/Dress shirts/ T shirts/ COVID Shirts/ Hawaiian shirts, plus a myriad of other factors.

 

Wrestling at lighter weights means you’re more likely to wrestle less experienced opponents and more evenly matched in your early years. Sanderson doing it -84, -97 makes it all the more incredible, plus the whole undefeated thing, really sets him apart from the group.

In baseball, the unassisted triple play is one of the rarest feats, with 15 occurrences in the 147 years of baseball… Eric Bruntlett has one of them. So yeah, it may be rare and incredible, but luck and circumstance have their part as well.

 

[1032004]

7 hours ago, SocraTease said:

The 4-timer stuff is so compromised and fetishized.   

It doesn't account for the level of competition and other variables.

A 3-timer like Nolf (who only barely lost in the finals to an NCAA champ his freshman year whom he earlier pinned)  is actually better than a 4-timer like Yianni.  And he was absolutely more dominant than Yianni or Dake.

Steiber won some finals he arguably should not have given the calls.  

Luck, draws, and other factors play so much of a role. 

Most people are only capable of thinking in terms of simple causality.   The world doesn't work that way. 

It's a mental blindness of the worst kind and attributable in large part to evolutionary psychology.

Dominance doesn't really matter unless you win them all.

Their resume of wins look very comparable to me.  Martinez was the only national champ that Nolf beat, and then Deakin would win 3 years later.   Yianni beat 2x champ Heil (yeah yeah he didn't have a great senior season), and also beat Nick Lee who would go on to be a 2x champ.   There are also several guys who Yianni beat that could go on to become champs in future years.

Nolf's other best wins: Kemerer (4-4-3-2), Hidlay (5-4-3-2), Berger (5-3-2), Micah Jordan (6-4-2), Pantaleo (6-5-3), Lavallee (2)

Yianni's other best wins: Meredith (4-2-2), Eierman (5-4-3-2), Sasso (5-2-2), McKenna (3-3-2), Parco (8-6-4 with 2 more years), Lovett (a 2 with 2 more years)

 

Edited March 19, 2023 by 1032004

[BigRedFan]

1 minute ago, D3UC157 said:

To be a four-timer you have to win as a Freshman, has the college program put in the instant development to get them there or have they already come in as an incredible talent?

 

Yianni had been working with the Cornell staff since junior high school (not to mention training with Vito for years), IIRC.  Dake was local to Ithaca, so also spent lots of time there.  Coincidence?

Off-topic trivia question:  who gave Vito his only high school loss?

[D3UC157]

5 minutes ago, BigRedFan said:

Yianni had been working with the Cornell staff since junior high school (not to mention training with Vito for years), IIRC.  Dake was local to Ithaca, so also spent lots of time there.  Coincidence?

Off-topic trivia question:  who gave Vito his only high school loss?

If they both happened to live near Ames would they still have ended up at Cornell? The coincidence being where they lived I guess?

 

Yianni beats 8th grade Vito
 

 

[BigRedFan]

6 minutes ago, D3UC157 said:

If they both happened to live near Ames would they still have ended up at Cornell? The coincidence being where they lived I guess?

 

Yianni beats 8th grade Vito
 

 

The coincidence being that the two 4xers at Cornell both trained at Cornell prior to matriculating at Cornell.  This in response to your question about whether their freshman year wins had anything to do with Cornell:
 

Quote

To be a four-timer you have to win as a Freshman, has the college program put in the instant development to get them there or have they already come in as an incredible talent?

 

[Wrestleknownothing]

There is an argument to be made that winning by a little ALL the time (or almost all the time) is a form of dominance.

If it occurs over a short period of time it is easy to find other explanations (luck, weak competition, etc). But, if it occurs over a long period of time I think it is fair to say that it is dominance.

Sometimes luck can look like dominance, but sometimes it is the other way around. I think this is one of those times.

[jross]

7 hours ago, SocraTease said:

The 4-timer stuff is so compromised and fetishized.   

It doesn't account for the level of competition and other variables.

A 3-timer like Nolf (who only barely lost in the finals to an NCAA champ his freshman year whom he earlier pinned)  is actually better than a 4-timer like Yianni.  And he was absolutely more dominant than Yianni or Dake.

Steiber won some finals he arguably should not have given the calls.  

Luck, draws, and other factors play so much of a role. 

Most people are only capable of thinking in terms of simple causality.   The world doesn't work that way. 

It's a mental blindness of the worst kind and attributable in large part to evolutionary psychology.

Very out of character.  Ask questions only Socra…

[1032004]

18 minutes ago, D3UC157 said:

To be a four-timer you have to win as a Freshman, has the college program put in the instant development to get them there or have they already come in as an incredible talent?

In that case it’s more personal decisions of where to go to school.

Just so happens 2 guys picked Cornell.

It’s neat that they have 2 and the big guys only have 1 or 0. 
 

The four-timer thing is impressive and also circumstantial for most. Weight class, opponents, upsets, rule changes(I’m looking at you Logan), redshirts/Grey shirts/Olympic Shirts/Dress shirts/ T shirts/ COVID Shirts/ Hawaiian shirts, plus a myriad of other factors.

 

Wrestling at lighter weights means you’re more likely to wrestle less experienced opponents and more evenly matched in your early years. Sanderson doing it -84, -97 makes it all the more incredible, plus the whole undefeated thing, really sets him apart from the group.

In baseball, the unassisted triple play is one of the rarest feats, with 15 occurrences in the 147 years of baseball… Eric Bruntlett has one of them. So yeah, it may be rare and incredible, but luck and circumstance have their part as well.

 

 

C'mon your last paragraph in particular is just silly.   You're not honestly comparing catching a line drive while 2 guys happen to be on base to winning 20 matches at the NCAA tournament over a 4 year period, right?  Please tell me you're joking.

 

Also define "experience."   College experience maybe, but overall wrestling experience is generally higher at the lower weights, and the middle weights tend to have the greatest number of overall participants.

I will give you it's probably more coincidence that Cornell got 2 4x'ers, but you seem to be diminishing the feat in general.   It's incredibly hard as seen by the few guys that have done it, and several that were assumed to be able to (Gable, Lee, etc) but couldn't get it done.  Congrats to Yianni, I feel bad that he seemed to be overshadowed this season by Lee "because of Lee's dominance," but Yianni can be argued as #2 on the list behind Cael given he only had 2 losses.