Overtime Rules

[Gus]

Are high school OT rules superior to college OT rules? Watching the Elam - Sloan match, along with a few others at Big 12's last weekend I came away thinking that the OT rules should be tweaked. Should the wrestlers have to chose top or bottom in tie breakers rather than neutral? The TB1 ride out, chose neutral and then run tactic and win on riding time is an anticlimactic finish.

[Dogbone]

Agree they should make the tweak.    You shouldn't be allowed to choose neutral in the TB after they just wrestled 2 min OT in neutral.

[Bigbrog]

1 minute ago, Dogbone said:

Agree they should make the tweak.    You shouldn't be allowed to choose neutral in the TB after they just wrestled 2 min OT in neutral.

Color me stupid but I thought that was the rule...ie., someone has to choose top or bottom...wow, out of all the college wrestling I watched I don't think I ever saw someone take neutral in the TB's.  So to answer the original question, yes, they should do like HS.

[Holtfan]

I thought the choice was any of the three. I could swear there was a college match this season where I saw a wrestler choose neutral in OT.  Facundo/Kennedy, perhaps?  

 

[PortaJohn]

2 minutes ago, Holtfan said:

I thought the choice was any of the three. I could swear there was a college match this season where I saw a wrestler choose neutral in OT.  Facundo/Kennedy, perhaps?  

 

Answer is Yes & Yes

[Holtfan]

Just now, PortaJohn said:

Answer is Yes & Yes

I believe the rule is the same in HS.  In TB-1, you can choose top, bottom or neutral. In UTB, you can only choose Top or Bottom. College, by virtue of the riding time in TB-1, doesn't have a UTB any longer. 

 

[CHROMEBIRD]

No need to complicate things unnecessarily. Just do SV until first score.

[PencilNeck]

If you picked bottom and couldn't escape, that's on you. 

[PortaJohn]

28 minutes ago, Holtfan said:

I believe the rule is the same in HS.  In TB-1, you can choose top, bottom or neutral. In UTB, you can only choose Top or Bottom. College, by virtue of the riding time in TB-1, doesn't have a UTB any longer. 

 

This is what I found but I haven't paid attention to HS wrestling in years so do not know if it's the current rules.

High School:

Overtime Scoring – A winner must be declared in all individual matches. If a match is tied at the end of

regulation, the following overtime scoring system is used in order, until a winner is declared.

• 1 minute sudden death period (first person to score wins).

• Two 30 second tie breakers (wrestlers swap referee’s positions). If match is still tied, it goes to a

ride-out.

• 30 second ride-out (wrestler who scored first has the choice in referee’s position). If wrestler

escapes from bottom position, he wins. If he is ridden-out for the 30 seconds, he loses.

 

Edited March 7, 2023 by PortaJohn

[gimpeltf]

26 minutes ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

No need to complicate things unnecessarily. Just do SV until first score.

They experimented with that maybe 30 years ago. One of the kids ended up in the hospital.

[PencilNeck]

1 minute ago, gimpeltf said:

They experimented with that maybe 30 years ago. One of the kids ended up in the hospital.

Here's an example from Greco at the 1912 Olympics, so not super relevant, but it is a great piece of Olympic trivia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrestling_at_the_1912_Summer_Olympics_–_Men's_Greco-Roman_light_heavyweight

"The final match between Ahlgren and Böhling was declared a draw after more than 9 hours of wrestling. Since the rules of the contest were worded in such a way that the gold medalist had to have defeated his opponent, neither man could take the gold medal and both received silver."

[CHROMEBIRD]

This isn't Greco and the referee needs to call stalling. Under the current rules one of those wrestlers would have stalled out to DQ.

[mspart]

9 hours of wrestling!!!   Could it be 4 hours of wrestling and 5 hours of leaning?

mspart

[Gus]

1 hour ago, PortaJohn said:

Answer is Yes & Yes

Yep, and the same thing happened in Sloan vs Elam.

[GnarlyEar]

No they shouldn’t be changed. The choice in TB1 goes to the wrestler who scored the first offensive point. If he defers and his opponent chooses bottom and gets ridden out, that’s on him. 
 

If you want the option to “run” in TB1 then take some risk and score first in regulation (then ride your opponent out for 30 seconds after 9 minutes of wrestling). 

[Gus]

5 minutes ago, GnarlyEar said:

No they shouldn’t be changed. The choice in TB1 goes to the wrestler who scored the first offensive point. If he defers and his opponent chooses bottom and gets ridden out, that’s on him. 
 

If you want the option to “run” in TB1 then take some risk and score first in regulation (then ride your opponent out for 30 seconds after 9 minutes of wrestling). 

Sloan vs Elam

1st Period - No scoring

2nd Period - Sloan chooses bottom and Elam racks up 1:00 of riding time before Sloan gets an escape.  1-0 Sloan

3rd Period - Elam chooses Neutral and no scoring. 1-1 tie

SV - No scoring

TB1 - Elam gets choice because he scored first via riding time or they just flipped the coin and he won. Elam defers and Sloan choses bottom. Gets ridden out. 30 seconds riding time for Elam

TB2 - Elam choses neutral, no scoring. Elam wins from riding time in TB1.

[GnarlyEar]

@Gus

Sounds like Sloan had 8+ minutes to find a way to score a takedown and didn’t take enough risk to put points on the board. Why should the fans be subjected to more boring wrestling because no one wants to take risk or isn’t good enough to find a way to win? 

[Dogbone]

Elam had 8 minutes to find a way to score a TD and didn't take enough risk or wasn't good enough to put points on the board, why should he be allowed to pick neutral and subject fans to more boring neutral wrestling? 

 

[GnarlyEar]

@Dogbone He (Elam) was good enough to ride him for over a minute - so that were were not subjected to more boring wrestling 

[Gus]

51 minutes ago, GnarlyEar said:

@Dogbone He (Elam) was good enough to ride him for over a minute - so that were were not subjected to more boring wrestling 

I get what you are saying, I just think there is a better way to differentiate the winner than that.

[BobDole]

On 3/7/2023 at 3:02 PM, PortaJohn said:

This is what I found but I haven't paid attention to HS wrestling in years so do not know if it's the current rules.

High School:

Overtime Scoring – A winner must be declared in all individual matches. If a match is tied at the end of

regulation, the following overtime scoring system is used in order, until a winner is declared.

• 1 minute sudden death period (first person to score wins).

• Two 30 second tie breakers (wrestlers swap referee’s positions). If match is still tied, it goes to a

ride-out.

• 30 second ride-out (wrestler who scored first has the choice in referee’s position). If wrestler

escapes from bottom position, he wins. If he is ridden-out for the 30 seconds, he loses.

 

In high school each wrestler has a choice in the tiebreakers, they can choose top or bottom. It is extremely rare someone chooses top, but can happen.

[bnwtwg]

On 3/7/2023 at 2:20 PM, mspart said:

9 hours of wrestling!!!   Could it be 4 hours of wrestling and 5 hours of leaning?

mspart

4 hours of wrestling, 5 hours of getting back to the center after ref calls stalemate on double ankle passes on the edge of the mat

[AlexS]

On 3/7/2023 at 2:46 PM, Gus said:

Sloan vs Elam

1st Period - No scoring

2nd Period - Sloan chooses bottom and Elam racks up 1:00 of riding time before Sloan gets an escape.  1-0 Sloan

3rd Period - Elam chooses Neutral and no scoring. 1-1 tie

SV - No scoring

TB1 - Elam gets choice because he scored first via riding time or they just flipped the coin and he won. Elam defers and Sloan choses bottom. Gets ridden out. 30 seconds riding time for Elam

TB2 - Elam choses neutral, no scoring. Elam wins from riding time in TB1.

There is an answer here for Sloan that I think coaches need to consider. Take top! If you're not confident you can get away, take top, get your 30 seconds of riding time, then Elam can't take neutral (or would need to score there), if he takes bottom, you ride him out again and win, and if he takes top too and gets the rideout, riding time is tied and you go to the next set of OTs. 

Taking neutral after you get a rideout is good strategy, especially against a strong rider, but if both wrestlers are good on top, neither should choose down.

Edited March 9, 2023 by AlexS
typo

[PencilNeck]

25 minutes ago, AlexS said:

neither should choose down.

I think in general choosing down, especially in the 3rd period is way overdone. As is deferring. Sure, having more information going into the third might help, but maybe it's also easier to get that escape point in the 2nd when you're closer to being fresh than starting the 3rd.

 

For TB, 30s is indeed pretty short. I wonder if anyone has stats on the ride outs end up, like how baseball coaches play the averages with calls. Seems that most wrestlers just default to thinking they're a good wrestler, so they can get out and just choose down out of habit.

[ugarles]

2 hours ago, PencilNeck said:

I think in general choosing down, especially in the 3rd period is way overdone. As is deferring. Sure, having more information going into the third might help, but maybe it's also easier to get that escape point in the 2nd when you're closer to being fresh than starting the 3rd.

I am pretty sure this was the difference in the Ungar-Sotelo matchups this year. Sotelo won 1-0 at the Cornell-Harvard dual with a third period rideout but Ungar won 4-2 at EIWA with a quick second period reversal and a takedown in SV.

Edited March 9, 2023 by ugarles