scourge165

No...he can't. But I can change the criteria I USE on a Wrestling forum when his tie was in a exhibition and his loss was to guy who'd graduated. 26 year old Dan Gable beating 18 year Lee Kemp(if that had gone the other way) wouldn't be a loss I would count as a College loss for Kemp either. I'm not talking about the "official rules," or "scrubbing," anything. I'm applying the same standard to him as we'd apply to Wrestlers now. And you can't do that with Gable because...he didn't Wrestle varsity.

STILL not trying to "scrub the record," I'm trying to use how we count wins and losses today and applying it to him. Cael Sanderson isn't 178-1 because he lost his RS year, right? So I'm just using the same standard EVERYONE else(figuratively speaking, but virtually everyone) uses. There's a reason why every reference to Kemp says he was unbeaten in his final 110 matches. Take it up with the establishment!

Me too. I don't think he was thinking about insulting or joking about anything right there. To be honest...I'd laugh if I thought he was as it just gets a little tired. I also loved the handshake as well, but I think he was just saying, they get the credit. It's always possible he's got a REALLY dry sense of humor...

I'd gladly stall my way to 2 or 3-5 National Championships...if such a thing were possible. It is of course NOT...and that should be obvious. Silly topic. It Alex Marinelli stalling or is he just not as explosive and as good at finishing at Carr/O'Toole? One guy I might argue would be Hidlay. He's talented enough to attack and he can score points if he gives up a TD, he doesn't need to be so...tactical every match. But Carter Starocci? People are applying a different set of standards to him. 3X champ, ergo, he should be teching everyone. And if he "only" wins 8-3, he stalled.

Yup...when he wasn't pinned5 or 6 times! About as animated as I've ever seen Cael...which wasn't very animated, but he shrugged and I could see him saying "C'mon." So that's pretty much Cael losing his shit right there...in Cael standards.

It's not a slight against Facundo...it's more about Messenbrink. I think Facundo could be an AA next year. I think Messenrbink COULD beat anyone in the weight, even if they're all back next year.

That makes sense. I'd say the cardio could easily have improved...it can always improve. But mentally, sure. The pressure, the rehab, all of it, I can imagine...HAD he won, it would have felt like more of a relief than the...reward or thrill that it SHOULD be. I suspect it was similar for Yianni. He wrestled far worse than normal. A healthy Gomez vs Yianni match at the NCAAs may have been interesting. A reminder, maybe we shouldn't pencil in Starocci in quite yet(or even Brooks if he moves up to 197, I think a guy like Elam could make things difficult).

How is it different from calling people white, black...or Asian? The most vague of all. Could be Russian, Iranian, Chinese? Moreover, how are they NOT still "lumped into one presumed homogenized entity?" You're not differentiating anything. You're just replacing Latino or Hispanic with LatinX....which EVERY Latino person I know...which includes a couple of beautiful nieces, Brother In-Law and a VERY large extended family who...seem to have very vocal opinions on LatinX. But that's anecdotal. 4% of people in the aforementioned poll don't like LatinX. Here they're actively articulating they DISLIKE the term...and find it condescending. https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/many-latinos-say-latinx-offends-or-bothers-them-here-s-ncna1285916 So I'm struggling to find a reason to use it. When I see actual Latino people using it, I'll gladly(continue) to respect their wishes. Not that it makes anymore sense, but I digress.

They can be if we're trying to use a way to compare records. How about he had a 110 match winning streak vs College competition? @jchapman Yeah...that's amazing. 3 years earlier, getting cut from Basketball and barely .500 Then gets his ass kicked by Yagla, then comes back, gets a split decision when he was the only one to score a TD. THAT close to being considered the GOAT. Yet another reason why you can't just rank Wrestlers by AA finishes. With respect to Stieber or even Yianni(and I have a LOT of respect for them)...I'll take Kemp over either on an all-time list. He was a monster. Forced Gable back into retirement at 18 years old!

As I said, they described him as an "Olympic Alternate," and such a thing doesn't exist. So I don't know. So I'm not sure.

YES...that is HUGE. I absolutely agree. We pretty much already know who's going to be the team champs next year, the year after, and likely the next 5-6 years(at least).

Oh, in that respect, you're absolutely right. Kemp seems to be totally at peace with his career(which...I'm sure he's lying to himself a LITTLE bit...as Chael said, every Wrestler has regrets). But he says he is, he seems like he's over it. If Geen Mills still laments the boycott(and I don't blame him...) then I guess in that sense it "cost" him more. I wonder what the sentiment would be if the Olympics were being held in Moscow instead of Parris? Speaking of which, I wonder if that's part of the reason that among the kinda leading NATO nations, France is the one who doesn't want to see Russia/Belarus banned? As for Adam Kemp, that's not his grandson, that's his Son. He talks about how his Dad had to pay him to go out for the sport. There's a documentary I can't believe I haven't watched, but it sounds like he had a lot of personal struggles in his life...right around the time that I'd first met him(he came to speak to a group and then I got to spend a few minutes and he was an extraordinarily inspiring man). Son sounds like he's very bright and I get the feeling Wrestling isn't his life as Wrestling Centric as some others, but he seems very driven business wise. His father was as well. Talks about growing up during the very contentious divorce(not that he goes into detail). The Documentary(apparently) talks about how his wife dealt with psychological issues, he lost custody, there was a restraining order, eventually he regained full custody. Just an aside to remember, you never know what shit people are dealing with in life.

Ok, this all makes sense...I got that and I would ABSOLUTELY respect their preference. It's no skin off my back to say "LatinX," over Latino or Hispanic... But if the people who we're talking about vehemently dislike the term, then it feels condescending and a little condescending. They fought for an inclusive word like Latino or Hispanic. They got it. They were happy. Now; https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/05/us/latinx-gallup-poll-preference-trnd/index.html Remember the controversy over the Washington Football team? Now that one did seem unnecessarily offensive and it was rooted in racism(the owner literally named them that because he wanted them to "play like savages." BUT...there was a time when among Native Americans, that was their favorite team and polls(perhaps questionable polls, but polls nonetheless) by the Washington Post said 90% of Native American's were in favor of keeping the teams name. That changed and then they became the Washington Football team, then the Commanders. God this is corny, but lets just try and LISTEN to people more. We might solve SOME issues. Just TRY and understand the opposing views. I understand LatinX may have been done with good intentions(most of these things are)...but Latino people can decide for themselves.

I can't speak to burning himself out, but I don't believe he peaked too early. I think he needed more 7 minute matches, to be tested a little more. He was sticking too many guys in the 1st period and that doesn't allow you to work on your conditioning in a real match situation. All the rest, I agree with. Spending time coming back from two ACLs and the rehab...PLUS the pressure of being a 4X Champ and the 1st 4X Champ in Iowa History, I think he had more pressure on him than anyone else. I'd also venture a guess that nobody wants to see Glory vs Lee more than...Lee.

My convictions on this are NOT strong. It's just...seems unlikely he's going to be able to gut Gillman or Fix and he's not elite on his legs. But I honestly never have been able to figure out HOW Lee is so good. He gives up more TDs than other dominant Wrestlers. He was taken down by Vespo from PSU! He's not like a huge looking '25 or '57, his quickness doesn't seem to be RBY/McGee/Vito level. I guess he must just have incredible grip, core strength. And then the one thing that seemed obvious, he has this preternatural feel for Wrestling. It's like when you're watching a guy and it's SO easy to say from a distance WHAT they should do(even the best Wrestlers) and he just has that feel. So I'm not placing any bets against Spencer Lee, I guess...maybe curious to see how he does coming back to Freestyle at the Sr Level would be a better way to word it given how he's wrestled the last 4 years in Folkstyle.

Well, Cael said, "not long for," not that it was a huge cut yet. Maybe he's just...inferring that they expect him to add some muscle and with his frame, develop into a '65? I doubt there's a huge difference in size between Messenbrink and Haines, so if it'd make sense Haines stays at 157 this year. But they could also RS him this year, let Messenbrink wrestle '57 and then let one go up to '65. Maybe Facundo grows into '74 by then? I don't know, it's really not a problem. They're going to have NC caliber Wrestlers in several weight of those weights for the foreseeable future.

I don't think he does. I think Messenbrink will actually beat him pretty soundly. Messenbrink will probably fire off about 45 shots in that match. He's going to be fun to watch. And I do think Facundo is a stud who was in a loaded weight this year, so it's no slight against him.

Messenbrink is a different cat. He's HYPER competitive and while Askren did have his guys go to different weights to promote AWA, that was pretty low stakes. Nobody was beating Sinclair at 220 with Mirasola moving up to HWT...so there was really nothing they were risking. Messenbrink has a unique drive. And I should be clear, i don't think he'd do it to stop O'Toole, I just dont' think he'd care. I mean, it may be some extra motivation, but it wouldn't be the reason. If he ends up at Mizzou, it'll likely be at '57 and then'65. But if it's PSU, probably '65

We'll see. I think it could be the exact opposite. I understand Spencer has won World Titles and he's entered exactly ONE Open and that was 2019 and he looked dominant, but he looks a step slower on his feet and it's easier for guys to not give up that wrist control when they can flatten out. This is not me BETTING against Spencer Lee...I did that once because...well, the odds. I'm just saying when he was dominating, he was better on his feet, he was taking people down and immediately transitioning into his turns. I think he can get back there(and based on who's already registered alone I might lean toward him) but I think he's still not quite healthy and not quite ready to pick up where he left off 4 years ago.

Can someone actually tell me how he did this and what was wrong? It IS...questionable that you can score more points on the backside than a NC. The team PSU is putting together...it's not gonna matter how it's scored. Maybe if you get to add up all the points from teams in your state aside from PSU(LeHigh, Pitt, Lock Haven and the like would be one team). Maybe that'd make it interesting.

I won't. But I still think it cost Lee Kemp more. Lee Kemp is someone people don't give the credit he's due. SHOULD have been the 1st 4X National Champion IMO. Gets the only TD and loses on a referees decision. Won a WC at 21, youngest ever(until Captain America...I believe). Won a couple more. Won the last 110 matches of his career, including helping Dan Gable decide to stay retired as an 18 year old Soph in College. I think if Lee Kemp wrestles in that Olympics, people would regard him as arguably the best US Wrestler ever and he was at 74KG. I say this with all due respect, I think that weight is generally...a better quality than 114. I'm also biased. He's one of the most inspirational and insightful people I've ever had the pleasure to meet in my life, and brief though those meetings were and with little reason for him to remember me, he has still said high every time I've seen him since, even asked how I was doing. So Mills may have been the favorite...I still think it elevates Kemp's status more than Mills.

This can't even be fun at this point. This is asinine. And I say that with all due respect for PSU, but IF Nagao and Truax end up at PSU...it's going to year after where it's basically PSU vs the field. 125-Howard-He's an AA if that shoulder is healthy...and there's no reason he shouldn't be after finally having it surgically fixed. This is a world Gold Medalist who's still has 4 years left. 133-NC contender. Top 3, if Vito and Fix take OLR, favorites. Don't see him beating Vito, but certainly see him giving Fix a run. 141-Bartlett, he's a distance 3 behind the top 2, but not so distant he can't close the cap. Would ANYONE be shocked to see him in the in the finals? 149-Van Ness-top 3 and looked like the light finally went on. Sasso, Gomez...the Van Ness when the light turned on could win it without anyone being the least bit surprised. -Hypothetically from here 157-Messenbrink-Immediate NC contender like Haines was this year...probably a stronger NC contender. 165-Haines is a NC contender with O'Toole and Carr, but...an underdog. 174-3X NC 184-(Truax?)3X AA 3 4th place finishes. Or Lucas Cochran takes over. It won't matter. 197-3X AA HWT-Kerkvliet That's 10 AAs, 8 with legitimate chances to win it and you have, in order 4, 3, 2, 3, 4, 3, 2, 1, ?, 2 years of eligibility left. You've got Lillendal, Sealy, Ryder, Barr, the Mirasolas, Kasak, Mason Gibson, Erik Gibson(which stands to reason Melvin Miller, and then the Bassett brothers. They'll probably get Hopke. This is...absolutely ridiculous. The NCAAs will still be interested, but the team race will be decided by 149 of the quarters. PSU could legitimately put a team out, add their score up vs the highest finisher NOT Wrestling for PSU and potentially beat them. I enjoy getting to witness greatness. But this is TERRIBLE for our sport. And the last thing I expect is a PSU fan to apologize for building a program that everyone wants to go to, for building a RTC that has the funds to pay for World Champions to come and represent them. 2-3 years from now, Kerk, Starocci, Brooks are going to be gone and this team could be BETTER than they are now. Can we at least create a few co-ops? Like...Ohio State and Michigan(Get over it, it's for the greater good). Or Iowa and Iowa State? Missouri and Cornell? I really thought he'd be headed to Missou and JUUUST maybe if things broke right, they could...not push PSU, but give them a run. If he ends up at PSU....it'd actually be almost a joke.

That is definitely not true. He did NOT make a good impression on Wisconsin recruits given how many times he'd been burned and he was giving out full rides for the likes of...Howe, Rutt, Medberry, Graff...but it was definitely not an all or nothing thing. I can see where it came from. He did have quite a few Wrestlers who got full rides. Jesse Thielke, Destin McCauley...a couple other prospects in that #1 ranked class were offered full rides, but...plenty were offered partials.

Well, a women in communications strategies or something named Grace Flores-Hughes claims to have come up with the term. Though the reason reasoning; There's actually a very real history behind it...they lobbied to get "Hispanics" onto the census for years(decades). And then it was Latino. And people were happy. It was a problem that needed to be solved.

Look...I have no dog in this fight, but c'mon...you don't see Iowa as having more injuries due, being more beaten up, not as fresh come March?? Howard came into PSU with shoulder issues as Kerk came with an ACL. Sorta like Spencer Lee, but Lee had two more ACLs in Iowa. Brooks...I don't know what injury he had with Brands and Downey is Freestyle and I'm just talking about the College season, but he's looked pretty healthy and spy most of his College career. Same with Starocci, and Nolf? It seems like the difference is...Penn State guys seem to look healthy, they look fresh and, most importantly win at the end of the year and Iowa guys look just beat to hell. Maybe it's the Wrestlers. Dean looked beat up just as Warner does. I don't know man...it just seems like Iowa goes are put through the ringer more than PSU guys.