Welsh to PSU makes no sense

[Wrestleknownothing]

  On 3/28/2025 at 8:37 PM, 1032004 said:

I’m not saying the kids are wrong for choosing something.   My point originally was mostly just to say that if someone can’t start at Penn State, they’re probably not winning an Olympic medal.  Whether they stay at Penn State or not.  And I stand by that.   And outside of Olympic dreams, obviously there are a lot of guys that would rather be a backup at Penn State than a starter somewhere else.  And there’s nothing wrong with that.  But when it comes to AA-level talent or close to it, recent history seems to show that its probably more common now for those types of guys to leave than stay (Beard, Barraclaugh, Facundo, Evans, Seth Nevills, etc) 

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Sebastian Rivera couldn't beat Nick Lee, but he won an Olympic bronze.

[1032004]

  On 3/28/2025 at 8:43 PM, Wrestleknownothing said:

Sebastian Rivera couldn't beat Nick Lee, but he won an Olympic bronze.

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He couldn’t beat Nick Lee, doesn’t mean he couldn’t start.  I think he would have started every year he wrestled IMO

2018 125 (Kuhn)

2019 125 (Schnupp)

2020 133 (he beat RBY 7-2 at B10’s, RBY probably cuts to 125 where they started Meredith)

2021 149 (Bartlett was a true FR giving up weight and DNQ, I say Rivera would have done better)

2022 149 Bartlett was 15-10 and went 1-2 at NCAA’s

[OMW]

  On 3/28/2025 at 7:13 PM, 1032004 said:

Not horrible, but having one less ring, an AA trophy, and the same knowledge from working with that staff would be better.

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such as Terrell Barraclough

[BruceyB]

  On 3/28/2025 at 7:25 AM, cl415 said:

Right PSU has never actually recruited a transfer. Anyone who has ever came to PSU via the portal (including the UWW portal) actually recruited Cael.

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You're right. They aren't getting any money to come wrestle at PSU.. 

[BruceyB]

  On 3/28/2025 at 9:05 PM, 1032004 said:

He couldn’t beat Nick Lee, doesn’t mean he couldn’t start.  I think he would have started every year he wrestled IMO

2018 125 (Kuhn)

2019 125 (Schnupp)

2020 133 (he beat RBY 7-2 at B10’s, RBY probably cuts to 125 where they started Meredith)

2021 149 (Bartlett was a true FR giving up weight and DNQ, I say Rivera would have done better)

2022 149 Bartlett was 15-10 and went 1-2 at NCAA’s

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Lol. So he would beat a fellow 141 pounder at a weight class that he didn't wrestle at in college. Good argument.

[Wrestleknownothing]

  On 3/28/2025 at 9:05 PM, 1032004 said:

He couldn’t beat Nick Lee, doesn’t mean he couldn’t start.  I think he would have started every year he wrestled IMO

2018 125 (Kuhn)

2019 125 (Schnupp)

2020 133 (he beat RBY 7-2 at B10’s, RBY probably cuts to 125 where they started Meredith)

2021 149 (Bartlett was a true FR giving up weight and DNQ, I say Rivera would have done better)

2022 149 Bartlett was 15-10 and went 1-2 at NCAA’s

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Playing a little fast and loose by putting him at a weight he never wrestled.

[1032004]

  On 3/28/2025 at 9:27 PM, Wrestleknownothing said:

Playing a little fast and loose by putting him at a weight he never wrestled.

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  On 3/28/2025 at 9:23 PM, BruceyB said:

Lol. So he would beat a fellow 141 pounder at a weight class that he didn't wrestle at in college. Good argument.

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Well first of all I said “I think.”   But I feel pretty strongly about that TBH.  I know Bartlett’s main problem was his size, but I think it’s a safe bet Rivera at 141 was bigger than him at 149, I believe he had said he would get up to like 160 even when wrestling 125.  And Rivera was in his 5th year vs Bartlett as a true freshman.  Then in Bartlett’s sophomore year he lost to Rivera’s teammate Mike Van Brill.  You don’t think Rivera was beating Van Brill in the Rutgers room?

And even without those 2 years, that’s still a 3 year starter at worst.  Don’t see how you can disagree with him starting over RBY given the H2H win.   RBY also could have redshirted.

[Wrestleknownothing]

  On 3/28/2025 at 9:40 PM, 1032004 said:

 

Well first of all I said “I think.”   But I feel pretty strongly about that TBH.  I know Bartlett’s main problem was his size, but I think it’s a safe bet Rivera at 141 was bigger than him at 149, I believe he had said he would get up to like 160 even when wrestling 125.  And Rivera was in his 5th year vs Bartlett as a true freshman.  Then in Bartlett’s sophomore year he lost to Rivera’s teammate Mike Van Brill.  You don’t think Rivera was beating Van Brill in the Rutgers room?

And even without those 2 years, that’s still a 3 year starter at worst.  Don’t see how you can disagree with him starting over RBY given the H2H win.   RBY also could have redshirted.

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But he couldn't have started at his preferred weight. That should be enough to satisfy your original criteria. Saying he could beat the guy who couldn't beat Nick Lee and had to wrestle a weight he was too small for, is way less interesting.

[1032004]

  On 3/28/2025 at 9:47 PM, Wrestleknownothing said:

But he couldn't have started at his preferred weight. That should be enough to satisfy your original criteria. Saying he could beat the guy who couldn't beat Nick Lee and had to wrestle a weight he was too small for, is way less interesting.

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I never said “at their preferred weight,”  I just said start.  That’s part of my point.  If a guy is good enough to win an Olympic medal the team probably finds a spot for him.

(I don’t think Rocco Welsh is good enough to win an Olympic medal, but feel free to bookmark this post)

Edited March 28 by 1032004

[Dogbone]

  On 3/28/2025 at 8:43 PM, Wrestleknownothing said:

Sebastian Rivera couldn't beat Nick Lee, but he won an Olympic bronze.

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Couldn't and didn't are two different things.  

 

[Wrestleknownothing]

  On 3/28/2025 at 10:17 PM, Dogbone said:

Couldn't and didn't are two different things.  

 

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But how do you know he could if he didn't?

[Wrestleknownothing]

  On 3/28/2025 at 9:51 PM, 1032004 said:

I never said “at their preferred weight,”  I just said start.  That’s part of my point.  If a guy is good enough to win an Olympic medal the team probably finds a spot for him.

(I don’t think Rocco Welsh is good enough to win an Olympic medal, but feel free to bookmark this post)

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My promise to you is I will never ever bookmark something and bring it up later. That is no fun.

[Dogbone]

  On 3/28/2025 at 10:49 PM, Wrestleknownothing said:

But how do you know he could if he didn't?

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Well... because he won an Olympic Medal...  (How is that for a circular argument?)

[Coastal]

  On 3/28/2025 at 8:43 PM, Wrestleknownothing said:

Sebastian Rivera couldn't beat Nick Lee, but he won an Olympic bronze.

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Olympic and World Championship bronzes are all about the draw.

[BruceyB]

  On 3/28/2025 at 9:51 PM, 1032004 said:

I never said “at their preferred weight,”  I just said start.  That’s part of my point.  If a guy is good enough to win an Olympic medal the team probably finds a spot for him.

(I don’t think Rocco Welsh is good enough to win an Olympic medal, but feel free to bookmark this post)

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U.S. world/olympic medalists during Cael's tenure..

Dake - Cornell

Diakimahalis - Cornell

Arujau - Cornell

Snyder - tOSU

Stieber - tOSU

Burroughs - Nebraska

Green - Nebraska

Lee - Iowa

Gilman - Iowa

Ramos - Iowa

Valencia - ASU

Fix - OKST

Cox - MIZZ

Gwiazdowski - NCST

Parris - Michigan

Steveson - Minnesota

 

DT - PSU

Retherford - PSU

Brooks - PSU

 

What does starting at PSU have to do with medaling at worlds? Of all the greats at PSU over the last 15 years, three have gone on to win world medals (this entire list is off the top of my head, it's not 100%). If anything, their dominance at the college level but inability to get those studs on a world team is concerning. I'm being facetious, but honestly.. their dominance at the NCAA level has not at all translated to senior level competition.

 

[PortaJohn]

  On 3/29/2025 at 5:05 AM, BruceyB said:

What does starting at PSU have to do with medaling at worlds? Of all the greats at PSU over the last 15 years, three have gone on to win world medals (this entire list is off the top of my head, it's not 100%). If anything, their dominance at the college level but inability to get those studs on a world team is concerning. I'm being facetious, but honestly.. their dominance at the NCAA level has not at all translated to senior level competition.

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Part of building the RTC was bringing in guys like Gilman, Dake, and Snyder.  It doesn't matter that they wrestled at other schools as much as attracting the upcoming wrestlers that the studs are in that room.  Luke & Blaze are some of the better international prospects and they chose PSU.

[ionel]

  On 3/29/2025 at 2:08 PM, PortaJohn said:

Part of building the RTC was bringing in guys like Gilman, Dake, and Snyder.  It doesn't matter that they wrestled at other schools as much as attracting the upcoming wrestlers that the studs are in that room.  Luke & Blaze are some of the better international prospects and they chose PSU.

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... and the Ono guy ... 

[1032004]

  On 3/29/2025 at 5:05 AM, BruceyB said:

U.S. world/olympic medalists during Cael's tenure..

Dake - Cornell

Diakimahalis - Cornell

Arujau - Cornell

Snyder - tOSU

Stieber - tOSU

Burroughs - Nebraska

Green - Nebraska

Lee - Iowa

Gilman - Iowa

Ramos - Iowa

Valencia - ASU

Fix - OKST

Cox - MIZZ

Gwiazdowski - NCST

Parris - Michigan

Steveson - Minnesota

 

DT - PSU

Retherford - PSU

Brooks - PSU

 

What does starting at PSU have to do with medaling at worlds? Of all the greats at PSU over the last 15 years, three have gone on to win world medals (this entire list is off the top of my head, it's not 100%). If anything, their dominance at the college level but inability to get those studs on a world team is concerning. I'm being facetious, but honestly.. their dominance at the NCAA level has not at all translated to senior level competition.

 

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Fair point, although “not at all” is probably a stretch considering they are still tied for the most medalists.

[scourge165]

  On 3/28/2025 at 12:32 AM, 1032004 said:

Serious question, has there been any PSU alumnus that did not transfer out and had notable international freestyle success that wasn’t at least a 3 (maybe even 4) year starter for the college team?  Seems like if they can’t consistently crack the PSU lineup, they probably aren’t going to accomplish their international dreams either.

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We're entering a new era. I could very easily see that happen. I could see PJ Duke being the 2nd best in the Country and having to wait a couple years to Wrestle. 

The Mirasola twins are also incredibly talented kids who have had success in Freestyle. I don't know what happens there, but the smaller one has been the most accomplished and I don't really see a path to him starting. Guys make a big jump after their Freshmen year, but he lost 10-1 to Barr. 

Maybe it's a 8-4 type match next year, but I don't think he's catching him. 

[Caveira]

  On 3/29/2025 at 2:08 PM, PortaJohn said:

Part of building the RTC was bringing in guys like Gilman, Dake, and Snyder.  It doesn't matter that they wrestled at other schools as much as attracting the upcoming wrestlers that the studs are in that room.  Luke & Blaze are some of the better international prospects and they chose PSU.

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Did any of those 3 medal prior to being in the psu room?

[1032004]

  On 3/29/2025 at 3:52 PM, scourge165 said:

We're entering a new era. I could very easily see that happen. I could see PJ Duke being the 2nd best in the Country and having to wait a couple years to Wrestle. 

The Mirasola twins are also incredibly talented kids who have had success in Freestyle. I don't know what happens there, but the smaller one has been the most accomplished and I don't really see a path to him starting. Guys make a big jump after their Freshmen year, but he lost 10-1 to Barr. 

Maybe it's a 8-4 type match next year, but I don't think he's catching him. 

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The “new era” to me seems like it’s more common for guys to actually leave though.  I get the feeling at least one Mirasola will leave

I think PJ Duke is a consistent starter for them.

[Gus]

  On 3/29/2025 at 4:11 PM, Caveira said:

Did any of those 3 medal prior to being in the psu room?

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All of them.

[scourge165]

 

  On 3/28/2025 at 3:29 AM, fishbane said:

Doesn't 184 clear out?  Three of the top 4 (Starocci, Keckeisen, Plott) graduate along with Foca, Washington, and Ruth.  Welsh should be preseason top 3 at 184.  Ryder could lose to Welsh and still make the podium.  He beat Parker (OU) 9-2 at the Scuffle and Parker was R12 at NCAAs.

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I believe '84 will be the toughest weight at next years tournament...

I made the case pretty well(at least I thought) in another thread where I listed all the guys, but just for starters, the kid from Minnesota is special. He had 4X potential if not for Covid. I really have a hard time seeing anyone beating him for a while. He's a big '84, he's got incredible feet, he's got a great shot, re-shot, defense. 

But then you can look at the returning AAs, Ferrari, Welsch, Sinclair, Norman from Stanford, Bennette Berge, Allred, etc... whoever is there for PSU(though it seems like that will be Welsch) and...lots of other good Wrestlers that I'm going to forget, but there is a ton of young talent. 

[scourge165]

  On 3/29/2025 at 4:11 PM, Caveira said:

Did any of those 3 medal prior to being in the psu room?

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  Quote

Part of building the RTC was bringing in guys like Gilman, Dake, and Snyder.  It doesn't matter that they wrestled at other schools as much as attracting the upcoming wrestlers that the studs are in that room.  Luke & Blaze are some of the better international prospects and they chose PSU.

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What does them medaling before coming to the NLWC have to do with his post? How is it even a response?

Ono has already medaled. Do you think that'll hurt the caliber of Wrestlers who'll want to come and train at the NLWC? If so, make that argument. I don't even know what the one you're making is. 

[scourge165]

  On 3/29/2025 at 4:24 PM, 1032004 said:

The “new era” to me seems like it’s more common for guys to actually leave though.  I get the feeling at least one Mirasola will leave

I think PJ Duke is a consistent starter for them.

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We'll have to see how it plays out. Facundo lost a year and he's an elite Wrestler. He beat Haines and O'Toole last off-season, unless I'm mistaken. And then he beat Kasak in a Wrestle-off, then lost to him at the Blacknight Open. Both were 5-2 scores. 

But he spent a year not Wrestling his preferred weight with Mesenbrink, then came back, lost a year while trying to go down. 

 

I think this is going to be the...most absurd it gets for Penn State. I think David Taylor in Stillwater is going to make this more interesting, more balanced. I'd love to see Casey Cunningham in Columbus, but it seems as if he's a PSU lifer. 

Give Taylor a little more time and people are going to see you can win big matches there without sitting. 

The biggest upset in Wrestling history(arguably) and Hamiti beating O'Toole. He has some big time studs coming in. Forrest and Ross in 2 years. Lockett and Duke could make an all-time great rivalry if they are both maybe '74 pounders(both have to RS a year). But I certainly wouldn't cede that to Duke. Spratley made a helluva run. 

 

This SHOULD be the zenith of Penn State's recruiting and transfering and success. If it goes UP from here? If they come back after back to back record breaking tournaments, the #1 recruiting class, getting a Freshmen runner-up to transfer(probably a HWT) AND the World Champion and a kid who just beat Spencer Lee...if they come back and improve on ANY of that, NCAA Wrestling is just gonna have to change it to "Penn State vs the Field." The next highest scorer at each weight vs PSU's Wrestler.