Starocci 2nd best ever?

[BruceyB]

Starocci is one of the greatest without a doubt. However, when comparing him in the pantheon of greatness, he lacks the attributes that many other athletes have displayed. He is an absolute winner first and foremost, but he doesn't display the same level of dominance that many other of the greats have shown. 

I know it's not a parallel example, but what has he done on the senior level that rivals his college success? Most of the all-timers were top 3 on the ladder while still in college, but Carter has not shown an ability to compete with the best even through his 5th year of college.

 

[Caveira]

3 minutes ago, BAC said:

for things HE didn't have the opportunity to do (e.g. go for Big 10 title last year, or have a higher # of matches overall).

He 1000000000% had that opty.   In fact…. As someone pointed out until recently EVERYONE prior to the wild card rule changes had to lace em up at conference and go.   Injury or not.  
 

He and or his coaches didn’t allow that.    That’s nuanced nonsense by the psu faithful and imo everyone except the hardest hard core psu faithful would agree.  

[BAC]

13 minutes ago, Caveira said:

Your ignorance towards Spencer and the fact that Carter is not the goat are different topics.  One has nothing to do with the other.  Nice try.  

You're the one that's repeatedly brought Spencer into this, not me. 

[BAC]

25 minutes ago, Caveira said:

He 1000000000% had that opty. 

He doesn't control how many matches PSU schedules.  He doesn't control whether he gets injured, or whether PSU coaches overrule his request to compete despite injury.  He doesn't control whether he gets a 5th year due to Covid.

He does control whether he beats the guy put in front of him.  And he's done that in every match since 2021.  Not saying he's the GOAT, but nor does he deserve to be unfairly downgraded based on criteria that are outside his control.

Edited Tuesday at 10:32 PM by BAC

[BAC]

Duplicate

Edited Tuesday at 10:27 PM by BAC

[Caveira]

7 minutes ago, BAC said:

He doesn't control how many matches PSU schedules.  He doesn't control whether he gets injured, or whether PSU coaches overrule his request to compete.  He doesn't control whether he gets a 5th year due to Covid.

You have like 838,383 caveat excuses for why he should be moved up the “goat” chain.    
 

peace out brother.  

[BAC]

2 minutes ago, Caveira said:

You have like 838,383 caveat excuses for why he should be moved up the “goat” chain.    
 

peace out brother.  

If you ever want to talk about whatever I said in 2023 that made you so sad, I'm always here. 

[Caveira]

9 minutes ago, BAC said:

If you ever want to talk about whatever I said in 2023 that made you so sad, I'm always here. 

It’s not necessary brother.  

[Wrestleknownothing]

3 hours ago, BAC said:

Thanks my friend.  I hadn't thought about the match count.  But respectfully, I think that factoring a low match count in these rankings, but not Starocci's unbeaten (so far) 5th year, is sort of a double-standard.

I do appreciate the logic in not counting his matches this year:  who's to say other 4x'ers wouldn't have had an undefeated 5th year if they had the chance, considering they won the year before?  But you could apply the same logic to penalizing a wrestler with a low match count:  who's to say a 25-0 NCAA champ wouldn't be 40-0 if he had the extra matches, considering he beat all the best wrestlers that year? 

Point being, since neither stat is within the wrestler's control, it doesn't seem fair to penalize for either.  So take match count of the equation.

Win percentage aside, Starocci's number of career (non-injury) losses is just two -- tied for second best. 

His number of consecutive NCAA-title seasons without a (real) loss is also second-best:  three.  (Again, not counting this season.)  

Or to look at it in reverse, if you're going to say "I'm not willing to consider Starocci's 77-2 record as good as Yianni's 115-2 career record since he never earned those extra wins, even though it isn't Starocci's fault he didn't have a chance to have as many competitions as Yianni," then you should also be willing to say, "I'm not willing to say the other 4x'ers 4 titles are as good as Starocci's 5 titles since they never earned that 5th title, even though it isn't their fault they didn't get to compete in a 5th year."

I took match count and total wins out of my analysis for that reason. It is especially problematic when looking at the three timers as they wrestled so few matches in the early days.

But no matter, when your divisor is 79 (or 81) you will always suffer relative to someone who has a divisor in the 120-160 range. Match count always comes in to play, whether directly or indirectly.

And now I can't remember if I did win streak as a total, or as a percentage of their career. I know I calculated it both ways. I will check when I get home.

As for your last paragraph, a season and a match as a unit of measure are clearly not comparable. Not every match is the same, but every season would end with virtually the same challenge: two tournaments where the best of the best must be gotten past. Sadly, what we do not have is wrestlestat type data for Sanderson, Smith, Stieber (1st 2 years), and Dake to be able to judge if Starocci's 77 wins were higher quality than the other guys' higher quantity.

[ionel]

1 hour ago, Caveira said:

You have like 838,383 caveat excuses for why he should be moved up the “goat” chain.     

You guys are really letting Jimmy get to you.  Now there's a chain of goats.   

[wrestle87]

I was originally going to put him pretty low, but then I remembered all the people he has beaten on his way to winning these titles.  Dude may not bring the heat, but he is clutch AF.

2021 - beat kemerer in overtime
2022 - beat mekhi lewis in the finals
2023 - pinned labriola in the finals
2024 - Beat walsh from Ohio state in the finals while wrestling with a blown out knee, on the way he beat mekhi in the quarters

He may not always put up points, but his mental game is on point.

I probably put him 4th behind cael, dake, and brooks.  

Edited Wednesday at 02:06 AM by wrestle87

[Gus]

1 hour ago, wrestle87 said:

I was originally going to put him pretty low, but then I remembered all the people he has beaten on his way to winning these titles.  Dude may not bring the heat, but he is clutch AF.

2021 - beat kemerer in overtime
2022 - beat mekhi lewis in the finals
2023 - pinned labriola in the finals
2024 - Beat walsh from Ohio state in the finals while wrestling with a blown out knee, on the way he beat mekhi in the quarters

He may not always put up points, but his mental game is on point.

I probably put him 4th behind cael, dake, and brooks.  

All these guys are clutch. That’s why they have won 4 nattys!
 

Stieber beat Devin Carter, Tony Ramos, Jordan Oliver and Mitchell Port.  

Pat Smith beat Tom Ryan, Sean Bormet, Scott Schleicher, Ray Miller.

Yianni beat Sammy Sasso, Risge Lovett, Joey McKenna, Bryce Meredith 

Brooks beat Parker Keckeisen, Trent Hidlay x2,  Myles Amine

Dake beat David Taylor, Frank Molinaro, Montell Marion, Derek St John

Cael beat John Trenge, Daniel Cormier, Vertus Jones, Brandon Eggum

[wrestle87]

13 minutes ago, Gus said:

All these guys are clutch. That’s why they have won 4 nattys!
 

Stieber beat Devin Carter, Tony Ramos, Jordan Oliver and Mitchell Port.  

Pat Smith beat Tom Ryan, Sean Bormet, Scott Schleicher, Ray Miller.

Yianni beat Sammy Sasso, Risge Lovett, Joey McKenna, Bryce Meredith 

Brooks beat Parker Keckeisen, Trent Hidlay x2,  Myles Amine

Dake beat David Taylor, Frank Molinaro, Montell Marion, Derek St John

Cael beat John Trenge, Daniel Cormier, Vertus Jones, Brandon Eggum

Love that list, thanks for putting in the leg work on that.

Looking at those opponents, I think you can slot starocci right between brooks and yianni, and you have a perfect list going from worst to best.

 

[scourge165]

8 hours ago, BAC said:

 

Or to look at it in reverse, if you're going to say "I'm not willing to consider Starocci's 77-2 record as good as Yianni's 115-2 career record since he never earned those extra wins, even though it isn't Starocci's fault he didn't have a chance to have as many competitions as Yianni," then you should also be willing to say, "I'm not willing to say the other 4x'ers 4 titles are as good as Starocci's 5 titles since they never earned that 5th title, even though it isn't their fault they didn't get to compete in a 5th year."

I'm not sure why we're just not counting his 6th year but we're counting Yianni's 6th year. 

We're just ceding that point.

I think it's also worth mentioning Yianni was beaten pretty soundly his 6th year in College. 

And then the level of competition is also relevant. 9 of Yianni's last 15 matches at the NCAAs were vs...B10 Wrestlers. 
His NCAA Finals opponent his last 3 years? All vs the B10. His Quarters, Semis and Finals the last 2 years for that matter. I'm thinking there's a change he takes another loss to a B10 Wrestler if he has to go through a duel season and a B1G Tourney...

What year was Spencer in when Ramos pinned him his Mother turned a nice pair of classes into two monocles?

So we're not counting the 6th year...except for the guys it does count...but what do YOU think is going to happen is Keck or McEnlly beats him?

Do you still think people won't count this year? LOL...course not, that'll be used as the reason he doesn't belong in the 4X Conversation. 

Heck, Callaveria was bemoaning his last of bonus points and at that point...he'd had bonus in every match BUT 1. 

Even using the "low" Bonus rate, it's pretty similar to Yianni's. And again, little bit different schedule. But similar. There's also the fact that Yianni was REAL close to going down one round before Lee in the NCAAs vs Murin, but, he didn't. 

 

It's just proving my point(not you BAC, the general argument). 

You can take the same thing and it's a check FOR Yianni or Dake or whoever and it's a check AGAINST Starocci. 

Yianni took a loss to Gomez as a Sr. He didn't have to wrestle a B1G schedule...except for the NCAA in which he wrestled B1G guys in the quarters, semis, finals. 

Starocci doesn't major a guy, there's a thread about Cstall. It's kinda silly. 

 

Throw him where you want to throw him...but his accomplishments are pretty impeccable. And we'll see how the 5th Title Chase goes...and if it doesn't count in the end!

 

 

[dragit]

11 hours ago, BAC said:

I think Carter is being undervalued on this thread, largely because the biggest assets he brings to the table are either not particularly fun to watch (his defense) or not visible to the naked eye (his will to win), and these stats won't show up on a comparison chart.

I think the Dake comparison is apt on his defense.  He's just incredibly hard to score on.  If I were ranking all the four-timers on that score, I'd have him second only to Dake.

But the will to win is the big one.  Of all the 4-timers, if they are in a zero-takedown match, what are the odds they will prevail?  For Carter, I'd put it at about 95%.  He's by far and away the best 4x'er on this, which makes him undervalued when you use more measurable stats.  Yes, a big part of that is he's an excellent rider while also being nearly impossible to ride.  Part is an ability to make mid-match adjustments. But its more than that.  

In matches decided by 2 points or less, he's 20-1 (actually 20-0 if you exclude his very first match, the 10-9 loss to DJ Washington, which you get the sense he's been avenging ever since).  He's 7-0 in matches that went to OT.  And if you watch enough of the matches, you start to realize how inevitable it is. 

It's not that he's unbeatable -- it's that to do so, you need to bring a whole lot more to the table than just being close in skill. Maybe an offense like Brooks/Taylor, or a total package like Dake.

But there's no "almost beating" Carter. There's no "whew, that SV match could've gone either way" with Carter.  I think that in his mind, his likelihood of winning is just as high in a SV match as it is when he's up 14-0, and the stats bear that out. The only variable is the amount of bonus points, not the chances of prevailing.

People talk about how Ferrari was "right there" with Carter, but the truth is, Carter wins that match 20 of 20 times. Keckeisen and McEnelly have a non-zero chance of an upset but are WAY bigger underdogs than the closeness of score of their most recent matches would suggest.

I'd put Carter behind Cael, Dake, and *probably* Brooks, but ahead of Smith, Yianni and Stieber.

This is a very well put description of his extraordinary strengths.  I wonder, though, how things would have turned out if he wrestled more like 120 matches in college.  Say he's in another 8 or 10 really tough matches over the years, including in very competitive in season tournaments.  Would walking is tightrope in all the close matches have caught up with him at some point?  Not saying it would have, just thinking out loud and speculating whether if he'd been in a lot more tight matches if it would have been harder to pull off what he has done so well in his biggest challenges.

[scourge165]

3 hours ago, wrestle87 said:

I was originally going to put him pretty low, but then I remembered all the people he has beaten on his way to winning these titles.  Dude may not bring the heat, but he is clutch AF.

2021 - beat kemerer in overtime
2022 - beat mekhi lewis in the finals
2023 - pinned labriola in the finals
2024 - Beat walsh from Ohio state in the finals while wrestling with a blown out knee, on the way he beat mekhi in the quarters

He may not always put up points, but his mental game is on point.

I probably put him 4th behind cael, dake, and brooks.  

Just...add that in '24 he also beat Shane Griffiths..

 

1 hour ago, Gus said:

All these guys are clutch. That’s why they have won 4 nattys!
 

Stieber beat Devin Carter, Tony Ramos, Jordan Oliver and Mitchell Port.  

Pat Smith beat Tom Ryan, Sean Bormet, Scott Schleicher, Ray Miller.

Yianni beat Sammy Sasso, Risge Lovett, Joey McKenna, Bryce Meredith 

Brooks beat Parker Keckeisen, Trent Hidlay x2,  Myles Amine

Dake beat David Taylor, Frank Molinaro, Montell Marion, Derek St John

Cael beat John Trenge, Daniel Cormier, Vertus Jones, Brandon Eggum

How many NCs did those guys have collectively?

Oliver in that infamous match with Stieber, he had 2 I believe. 

Smith-I don't think any had won one. 

Yianni-None

Brooks 1 in Parker Keckeisen

Dake-1 (St. John won one after, but we've determined we won't count MeEnelly or Ferrari's future accomplishments so doesn't count). 

Cael-None

Starocci-Griffith, Lewis 2X, Keck once, a chance at 2X. 

 

I mean, of course they're all clutch, they all won 4. Just one of them gets dragged a bit more than the others. 

[scourge165]

7 hours ago, BAC said:

If you ever want to talk about whatever I said in 2023 that made you so sad, I'm always here. 

LOL...there's a reason he's on ignore!

[Gus]

9 hours ago, wrestle87 said:

Love that list, thanks for putting in the leg work on that.

Looking at those opponents, I think you can slot starocci right between brooks and yianni, and you have a perfect list going from worst to best.

 

I did not intend to put them in any type of order haha. My first thought was that Stieber had some hammers to deal with in Oliver and Ramos and then I got to thinking that they all probably had hammers to deal with..

[Gus]

8 hours ago, scourge165 said:

Just...add that in '24 he also beat Shane Griffiths..

 

How many NCs did those guys have collectively?

Oliver in that infamous match with Stieber, he had 2 I believe. 

Smith-I don't think any had won one. 

Yianni-None

Brooks 1 in Parker Keckeisen

Dake-1 (St. John won one after, but we've determined we won't count MeEnelly or Ferrari's future accomplishments so doesn't count). 

Cael-None

Starocci-Griffith, Lewis 2X, Keck once, a chance at 2X. 

 

I mean, of course they're all clutch, they all won 4. Just one of them gets dragged a bit more than the others. 

Interestingly for Dake, 3 or his 4 finals opponents would go on to win titles of their own the following season.

The thing that is hard to quantify with the opponents title count is that the opponents may have had to deal with the 4xer at their weight class. Hard to win a title when the guy your going against wins 4... Then the other thing that is hard to factor is did guys move up or down at get out of the 4xers weight class.

[bnwtwg]

10 hours ago, Gus said:

Stieber beat Tony Ramos, Jordan Oliver

No he didn't.

[scourge165]

18 hours ago, Gus said:

Interestingly for Dake, 3 or his 4 finals opponents would go on to win titles of their own the following season.

The thing that is hard to quantify with the opponents title count is that the opponents may have had to deal with the 4xer at their weight class. Hard to win a title when the guy your going against wins 4... Then the other thing that is hard to factor is did guys move up or down at get out of the 4xers weight class.

Sure, but I'm just looking at 184 and I started a thread(before I saw this) and I think that's going to be a stacked weight.

McEnelly-
Welsh-Freshmen runner up
Ferrari-Capable of being a 4X
Sinclair-Also capable
Barr-Could win it at '97(don't think he will) and he's bumping up...though wouldn't count as a W for him). 

I could see 4-5 more titles coming out of the top 3 on this list. Top 3 could end up at '84 or '97

We could look back very differently if McEnelly is a 4X Finalist 2X Champ and Welsh is a 4X Finalist, 2X Champ...hypothetically. 

 

The only guy I could see who went a different weight would MAYBE be Pinto and Sinclair. Either different weight or took a RS waiting on it to clear out. 

[scourge165]

18 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

No he didn't.

Sure he did. Literally and by the actual rules.

They talked about the Oliver-Stieber situation(that exact position) in the coaches meeting and said you had to get your head out.

They changed the rule the following year, but Oliver lost that. Watch the seconds after the match. John Smith isn't arguing...because he knew.