Wrestleknownothing Posted March 17 Posted March 17 8 minutes ago, Zahnarzt said: How many Hodge trophies did Sanderson win? And who has the most? Sanderson won 3. Ben Askren, Zain Retherford, Spencer Lee, and Gable Steveson are the only two-timers. Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge
Wrestleknownothing Posted March 17 Posted March 17 54 minutes ago, scourge165 said: I'm not trying to take ANYTHING away from Dake. I'm just pointing out...I feel like one gets a pass for a conservative style of wrestling and the other gets crushed for it... This match here is a great example. He gives up the only TD. He's in a 3 point stance for much of it. I don't know why Humphrey cuts him with ~14 seconds left in the period, but he doesn't really put up a fight, just lets him go. And Dake wins a 3-2 match. He did it as a Freshmen, 4 Titles, it all speaks for itself, but with Starocci, he majors everyone this year and then Ferrari Wrestlers in a similar style, losses 3-1 and you have people starting threads about how this is why they're "pre-emptively" pointing this out to keep him off the "Mt Rushmore" of College Wrestling. Here is how they rank statistically. Unfortunately finding career bonus percentages is tough, but I do not think that will change the order much, if at all. If you added in things like total wins or total pinfalls, the older guys move up due to their higher usage rate. 2 Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge
Caveira Posted March 17 Posted March 17 7 minutes ago, Caveira said: At the ncaa wrestling tournament Dake had 9 of 20 bonus point wins. Carter had 4. Not sure which one, but one lit up lot up a lot more people at the ncaa tourney than the other. If I counted correctly, Cael had 18 bonus point victories at NCAAs. To put in perspective vs dake 9 vs carter 4. 18. That’s crazy. Malik amine already said on big 10 live tv it puts him (cstall) ahead of Cael. Solely because of the 5. Media needs talking points but that idea is 183% nonsense. 2
Paul158 Posted March 17 Posted March 17 5 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said: Here is how they rank statistically. Unfortunately finding career bonus percentages is tough, but I do not think that will change the order much, if at all. If you added in things like total wins or total pinfalls, the older guys move up due to their higher usage rate. Nice job. Thanks.
Fletcher Posted March 17 Posted March 17 Kid's almost lost to 2 freshmen. Let's slow our roll. I hope you didn't jinx him.
fishbane Posted March 17 Posted March 17 33 minutes ago, Fletcher said: Kid's almost lost to 2 freshmen. Let's slow our roll. I hope you didn't jinx him. It will take some time to understand the significance of those matches. The two freshman haven't been beaten by anyone else. Wins over them could enhance his already impressive resume. Logan Stieber lost to a true freshman his senior year. That freshman went on to win 3 NCAA titles and two Hoge awards. 1 1
RawDog Posted March 17 Posted March 17 I think people don't realize how good Keck is. Keck could easily be a three timer if he didn't have two 4x champs at his weight. Keck is a monster. If Starocci wins that will be his signature win. I think it would give Starocci an argument for greatest college wrestler of all time. At worst it's puts him 3rd behind Cael and Dake. It definitely puts him first on Penn states mt Rushmore. 1 1
OH-IO Posted March 17 Posted March 17 3 hours ago, dragit said: Dake won his first title 9 months after graduating high school. He beat a very good Marion in the final. The next year he ground a future undefeated national champion into Molinaro dust. The next year he beat a future national champion in the final. And then he went up a weight class to take on the defending and future Hodge winner and future Olympic gold medalist and beat him three times in three different kinds of matches. To me only Cael could potentially challenge that career, and I'd put Dake over him because of the redshirt. maybe his (Dake's) feshmen year was it........ D. Caldwell the defending returning National champ was in Dakes weight class, Caldwell who took out Metcalf the year before had to FF out of the National Tourney, Many could have utalized a shudda, cudda wudda i get it Dake most likely is a runner up the year Caldwell was in his weight class........ nothing for nothing sometimes a little luck needs to be on yourside to win 4 NCAA D1 Championships,
scourge165 Posted March 17 Posted March 17 33 minutes ago, dragit said: Great points. My main comeback is what's your confidence level he would have won without the redshirt? My guess is he probably goes 177 with those rules and he's Wrestling Mitch Clark(if he can make it that far)... Guessing who wins that is next to impossible.
scourge165 Posted March 17 Posted March 17 3 hours ago, CHROMEBIRD said: Starocci should get some credit for chasing after #5, yes, but the problem is that none of the four-timers even had the opportunity to do so. Also, Dake won at four different weights and got his first as a TF. I believe Starocci had both a redshirt year and a free Covid year. Yeah, he took a RS because Mark Hall was still at '74 and the strong favorite to win it. The 4 different weights doesn't do much for me and all the things Starocci gets nailed for, Dake did. Close matches...I'm actually curious what each bonus rate was(Dake's in particular). They both have 4 losses with two of them being MFF for Star which wouldn't have counted for Dake. And obviously Starocci had a free covid year or he'd be done. But Cael took a RS. I don't see people hold that against him.
dragit Posted March 17 Posted March 17 I probably wouldn't have him as the GOAT if he wins this weekend, but I still think some of the disrespect for Starocci is a little strange. Hasn't lost on the mat since freshman year, and that year avenged a loss and beat a very good Kemerer in the final. Last year finished with three straight shutouts, two over former champions, to win his fourth straight title on a badly injured knee. He has literally met every challenge in a five year career, many of which have been substantial, with Keck looming as the latest and last such obstacle. 1
Caveira Posted March 17 Posted March 17 (edited) 11 minutes ago, scourge165 said: The 4 different weights doesn't do much for me and all the things Starocci gets nailed for, Dake did. It’s posted above. Twice. Dake had 125% more bonus wins at NCAAs compared to cstall. And I think 200% more pins. can someone ever say. I’m in the conversation for the goat with 0 hodge trophies? Every single year he won a title someone else was more dominant. If you’re the goat. You dominate. Edited March 17 by Caveira 1
scourge165 Posted March 17 Posted March 17 1 hour ago, Wrestleknownothing said: Here is how they rank statistically. Unfortunately finding career bonus percentages is tough, but I do not think that will change the order much, if at all. If you added in things like total wins or total pinfalls, the older guys move up due to their higher usage rate. Lets use the same criteria for Starocci that the others had. That's 2 losses. He moves up to...98-2. So then he's behind I believe just Cael and maybe Yianni. He also wrestled 5 years of a B10 schedule. I think he deserves a little credit for that. I don't know what "top Quartile count" means though.
scourge165 Posted March 17 Posted March 17 (edited) 1 hour ago, OH-IO said: maybe his (Dake's) feshmen year was it........ D. Caldwell the defending returning National champ was in Dakes weight class, Caldwell who took out Metcalf the year before had to FF out of the National Tourney, Many could have utalized a shudda, cudda wudda i get it Dake most likely is a runner up the year Caldwell was in his weight class........ nothing for nothing sometimes a little luck needs to be on yourside to win 4 NCAA D1 Championships, Yeah, but then you look at Mekhi Lewis and Starocci. Both had pretty significant injuries. Starr was able to fight through it and win a title. 35 minutes ago, dragit said: I probably wouldn't have him as the GOAT if he wins this weekend, but I still think some of the disrespect for Starocci is a little strange. Hasn't lost on the mat since freshman year, and that year avenged a loss and beat a very good Kemerer in the final. Last year finished with three straight shutouts, two over former champions, to win his fourth straight title on a badly injured knee. He has literally met every challenge in a five year career, many of which have been substantial, with Keck looming as the latest and last such obstacle. Exactly. It's just...strange to me. For all intents and purposes, he's 98-2 in his career, 4X Champ, losses his first duel meet as a Freshmen and then in the B1Gs to Kemerer who was top 4, 4 Times. Lewis was Lewis was top 4 4X with a NC and the #1 seed when HE was injured...otherwise he's likely a champ. Shane Griffith was undefeated in 2020 and then went 1, 2, 5, 3 Hayden Hidlay, another guy he stopped. 2, 4, 3, 5. Foca, Labriola...what do you want from the guy? I'm not seeing the distinguishing traits that Smith, Stieber, Brooks, Dake or Yianni had over him. -Edit-I agree though, I don't think people appreciate his greatness. I'm not all that invested in "ranking" them...though I'd have Cael and Brooks at #1 and #2 if I'm leaving Starocci out of it. Maybe Smith for being the first. It's REALLY thin margins, but how they finish their careers is important so Stieber and Yianni both took losses. Cael dominated all the way through. Dake beating Taylor puts him above the bottom, but I'm not sure how far up. Edited March 17 by scourge165
OH-IO Posted March 17 Posted March 17 40 minutes ago, scourge165 said: Lets use the same criteria for Starocci that the others had. That's 2 losses. He moves up to...98-2. So then he's behind I believe just Cael and maybe Yianni. He also wrestled 5 years of a B10 schedule. I think he deserves a little credit for that. I don't know what "top Quartile count" means though. nice feedback!!!! Im starting to see some light in your thinking........ Starr is definitely right there... oh my I could not imagine 5 years of a B10 schedule, staying healthy and motivated that long takes a different type of engine (plus that wrestling room he's in and you know Cael had to get in there and throw his weight aroung, kind of like keeping the young bull in check), im very close "scourage165" to leaning with ya, lol 1
Ched64 Posted March 17 Posted March 17 I think the thing that sets Dake apart is that he moved up his senior year not because he grew out of 157 but specifically because Taylor was at 165 and he wanted the challenge. I know one of the Banachs were involved in something like that but really, who does that? Move up to take on arguably the absolute best wrestler in the country at that time? Then he beats him 3 times to nil. I think Cael is the GOAT but Dake is right up there. 4 years straight, no redshirt, no covid. He was never interested in style points…he was just a winner flat out all through that run. 2
fishbane Posted March 17 Posted March 17 7 minutes ago, Ched64 said: who does that? Move up to take on arguably the absolute best wrestler in the country at that time? Larry Owings.
OH-IO Posted March 17 Posted March 17 7 minutes ago, fishbane said: Larry Owings. dag on it "fishbane" you beat me to it....... I hear ya "Ched64", your right not many do that!!!
OH-IO Posted March 17 Posted March 17 2 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said: Sanderson won 3. Ben Askren, Zain Retherford, Spencer Lee, and Gable Steveson are the only two-timers. did anyone correct this? Taylor won 2 2012 & 2014 @ 165 1
fishbane Posted March 17 Posted March 17 3 minutes ago, OH-IO said: dag on it "fishbane" you beat me to it....... I hear ya "Ched64", your right not many do that!!! Do we have it backwards though? Owings cut weight to face Gable, right?
Wrestleknownothing Posted March 17 Posted March 17 3 minutes ago, OH-IO said: did anyone correct this? Taylor won 2 2012 & 2014 @ 165 You are the first. Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge
OH-IO Posted March 17 Posted March 17 6 minutes ago, fishbane said: Do we have it backwards though? Owings cut weight to face Gable, right? I am pretty certain Owings "cut" to 142??? kind of like a "vision quest" type moment
OH-IO Posted March 17 Posted March 17 7 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said: You are the first. i did so respectfully my friend
Wrestleknownothing Posted March 17 Posted March 17 2 minutes ago, OH-IO said: i did so respectfully my friend Agreed Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge
Hammerlock3 Posted March 17 Posted March 17 6 hours ago, Zahnarzt said: If he wins a 5th title on Saturday, where does CStarr rank amongst the best ever collegiate D1 wrestlers? no. 1 1 "Half measures are a coward's form of insanity."
Vanessa Aguirre Youngker, Arizona Class of 2025 Committed to Simpson (Women) Projected Weight: 131, 138
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