Starocci 2nd best ever?

[Zahnarzt]

If he wins a 5th title on Saturday, where does CStarr rank amongst the best ever collegiate D1 wrestlers?

[Richferg]

1 minute ago, Zahnarzt said:

If he wins a 5th title on Saturday, where does CStarr rank amongst the best ever collegiate D1 wrestlers?

There is no real way to answer that, but watching him vs Aaron Brooks in practice would go a long way in my opinion. 

[flyingcement]

3 minutes ago, Richferg said:

There is no real way to answer that, but watching him vs Aaron Brooks in practice would go a long way in my opinion. 

And against Mesenbrink for that matter.  (and many other excellent partners that came before them)

[Wrestleknownothing]

17 minutes ago, Zahnarzt said:

If he wins a 5th title on Saturday, where does CStarr rank amongst the best ever collegiate D1 wrestlers?

For me 5 is irrelevant. The question then becomes where does he rank right now? And I would put him below several other four-timers including Sanderson, Dake and Brooks, at least.

[scourge165]

33 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

For me 5 is irrelevant. The question then becomes where does he rank right now? And I would put him below several other four-timers including Sanderson, Dake and Brooks, at least.

I don't get why he's behind Dake. Cael is obvious. Brooks...Sure. 

But is it just that Dake did it at 4 weights?

[Zahnarzt]

34 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

For me 5 is irrelevant. The question then becomes where does he rank right now? And I would put him below several other four-timers including Sanderson, Dake and Brooks, at least.

For me, I would say 5 is relevant only because he accepted the burden of pursuing it.  As history has shown, there are no guarantees.  There is a constant emergence of new talent that challenges the great ones.  There is the risk of injury.  If he doesn’t win #5, I have to think his legacy is tarnished.  So there has to be some relevance to him going for it.  
 

However, if he does win #5, I still rank Dake ahead of him because for me, going 4/4 without a red-shirt and at 4 different weight classes is a more impressive accomplishment than going 5/5.

[AZ_wrestling]

I would honestly rank a few 3xers ahead of him, and probably every current 4xer.

[TylerDurden]

This is one of those topics where I feel like I have an immediate opinion, start writing it out...then realize I need to research about 10 guys 

 

[scourge165]

49 minutes ago, flyingcement said:

And against Mesenbrink for that matter.  (and many other excellent partners that came before them)

As good as Mesenbrink is, I'd guess it's fair to assume he can big Brother him yet. They also shouldn't really be Wrestling each other, but if they do...

I could also see him and Brooks Wrestling for an hour and nobody getting a TD. Their defense is soo good and Brooks best shot is off a re-shot. 

 

And again, I still just don't see how people can say this year doesn't count. We've seen SO many great Wrestlers not make it through a year. Just in the 2020 thread, Spencer Lee was the clear favorite that year. May have been his easiest bracket. That would have been 4. He ends up losing 2 years later to Ramos.

Not to mention, if he losses...in what could be HIS toughest bracket, he'll be moved down below all the 4X Champs most likely. 

Keck, McEnelly, Plott...most years it'd probably be a 3 way race between McEnelly, Barr, Welsh, maybe 4 way if Ferrari is Wrestling. 

I think when we look back at who he has beaten in 3 years, it'll look that much more impressive. 

[okokzach]

8 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

I think when we look back at who he has beaten in 3 years, it'll look that much more impressive. 

I know people will cite it in the future, but beating Ferrari and McEnelly as freshman when he's in his 6th year should be heavily discounted. Assuming he wins this year and beats Keckeisen to do it, that will be a big feather in his cap though. I think that would be bigger than the Mekhi Lewis wins

[Wrestleknownothing]

32 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

I don't get why he's behind Dake. Cael is obvious. Brooks...Sure. 

But is it just that Dake did it at 4 weights?

No, it wasn't the four weights.  I don't remember my thinking, but when I get home tonight I will look it up.

[ionel]

1 hour ago, Zahnarzt said:

If he wins a 5th title on Saturday, where does CStarr rank amongst the best ever collegiate D1 wrestlers?

Well Uetake was never beaten never challenged. Starocci was beaten and I'd say even challenged in some of his wins.  I'd say he is behind several of the undefeated 3x+.  He didn't win World or Olympic gold correct?  

[CHROMEBIRD]

35 minutes ago, Zahnarzt said:

For me, I would say 5 is relevant only because he accepted the burden of pursuing it.  As history has shown, there are no guarantees.  There is a constant emergence of new talent that challenges the great ones.  There is the risk of injury.  If he doesn’t win #5, I have to think his legacy is tarnished.  So there has to be some relevance to him going for it.  
 

However, if he does win #5, I still rank Dake ahead of him because for me, going 4/4 without a red-shirt and at 4 different weight classes is a more impressive accomplishment than going 5/5.

Starocci should get some credit for chasing after #5, yes, but the problem is that none of the four-timers even had the opportunity to do so. 

Also, Dake won at four different weights and got his first as a TF. I believe Starocci had both a redshirt year and a free Covid year.

[headshuck]

I’m bummed we didn’t see Dake win his 5th at 174.

[dragit]

Dake won his first title 9 months after graduating high school.  He beat a very good Marion in the final.

The next year he ground a future undefeated national champion into Molinaro dust.

The next year he beat a future national champion in the final.

And then he went up a weight class to take on the defending and future Hodge winner and future Olympic gold medalist and beat him three times in three different kinds of matches.

To me only Cael could potentially challenge that career, and I'd put Dake over him because of the redshirt.

[Zahnarzt]

19 minutes ago, dragit said:

Dake won his first title 9 months after graduating high school.  He beat a very good Marion in the final.

The next year he ground a future undefeated national champion into Molinaro dust.

The next year he beat a future national champion in the final.

And then he went up a weight class to take on the defending and future Hodge winner and future Olympic gold medalist and beat him three times in three different kinds of matches.

To me only Cael could potentially challenge that career, and I'd put Dake over him because of the redshirt.

Agree with all of this except the last statement.  For me, Sanderson’s collegiate career can only be eclipsed by a wrestler who wins 4 NCAA titles, goes undefeated, and wins 4 Hodge trophies.  
 

I’m not overly familiar with Uetake’s career.  If he went 3/3 and was undefeated, I’d put him even with Sanderson, and above Dake. 

Edited 14 hours ago by Zahnarzt

[lu_alum]

3 minutes ago, dragit said:

Dake won his first title 9 months after graduating high school.  He beat a very good Marion in the final.

The next year he ground a future undefeated national champion into Molinaro dust.

The next year he beat a future national champion in the final.

And then he went up a weight class to take on the defending and future Hodge winner and future Olympic gold medalist and beat him three times in three different kinds of matches.

To me only Cael could potentially challenge that career, and I'd put Dake over him because of the redshirt.

Although it was low scoring and tactical, the more impressive win in Dake's frosh championship run was the semi-final against Humphrey.  This win avenged a prior loss at the CKLV.

 

[dragit]

5 minutes ago, lu_alum said:

Although it was low scoring and tactical, the more impressive win in Dake's frosh championship run was the semi-final against Humphrey.  This win avenged a prior loss at the CKLV.

 

Nice - good example of his savvy. Another point in his favor is that this was the only match he had at NCAAs where he was in any trouble late.

[Ragu]

Most underwhelming 4 tome champ easily. Changing that number to a 5 doesn’t do much to move the needle for me

[dragit]

9 minutes ago, Zahnarzt said:

Agree with all of this except the last statement.  For me, Sanderson’s collegiate career can only be eclipsed by a wrestler who wins 4 NCAA titles, goes undefeated, and wins 4 Hodge trophies.  
 

I’m not overly familiar with Uetake’s career.  If he went 3/3 and was undefeated, I’d put him even with Sanderson, and above Dake. 

Great points.  My main comeback is what's your confidence level he would have won without the redshirt?

[peanut]

Being a four-timer is super impressive.  It takes an insane amount of work and talent and at least some luck (to be healthy enough to compete) to win a single title.

But when you consider that each year brings with it new challenges — new competitors, old competitors focusing on you, perhaps new rules or tactics, new injury possibilities, momentary mental lapses that cost you a match at NCAAs, etc — winning four times in a row is incredible. 

In general, I think fans put too much of a premium on all time discussions and not enough of a premium on appreciating the performances in front of us. Let’s give these athletes their props. 

[scourge165]

1 hour ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

No, it wasn't the four weights.  I don't remember my thinking, but when I get home tonight I will look it up.

I'm not trying to take ANYTHING away from Dake. I'm just pointing out...I feel like one gets a pass for a conservative style of wrestling and the other gets crushed for it...

24 minutes ago, dragit said:

Nice - good example of his savvy. Another point in his favor is that this was the only match he had at NCAAs where he was in any trouble late.

This match here is a great example. He gives up the only TD. He's in a 3 point stance for much of it. I don't know why Humphrey cuts him with ~14 seconds left in the period, but he doesn't really put up a fight, just lets him go. And Dake wins a 3-2 match. 

 

He did it as a Freshmen, 4 Titles, it all speaks for itself, but with Starocci, he majors everyone this year and then Ferrari Wrestlers in a similar style, losses 3-1 and you have people starting threads about how this is why they're "pre-emptively" pointing this out to keep him off the "Mt Rushmore" of College Wrestling. 

[Zahnarzt]

1 hour ago, dragit said:

Great points.  My main comeback is what's your confidence level he would have won without the redshirt?

That’s a good point you make.  Another way to eclipse Cael’s career…no losses, win 4, no RS. 

[Zahnarzt]

How many Hodge trophies did Sanderson win?  And who has the most?

[Caveira]

39 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

feel like one gets a pass for a conservative style of wrestling and the other gets crushed for it...

At the ncaa wrestling tournament 

Dake had 9 of 20 bonus point wins.    

Carter had 4.   
 

Not sure which one, but one lit up lot up a lot more people at the ncaa tourney than the other.