11986 Posted March 15 Posted March 15 Dave Schultz in '84 had to beat another world champ to win his gold; not sure how many other weights at the LA Games had multiple world champs. I'm not diminishing the fact that it would have been a whole lot tougher to win with USSR etc. in the field, but he had also won his world title in the year before, in Russia, beating a Russian in the finals.
Irani Posted March 15 Posted March 15 On 3/15/2025 at 4:28 PM, 11986 said: Dave Schultz in '84 had to beat another world champ to win his gold; not sure how many other weights at the LA Games had multiple world champs. I'm not diminishing the fact that it would have been a whole lot tougher to win with USSR etc. in the field, but he had also won his world title in the year before, in Russia, beating a Russian in the finals. Expand I agree that David Schultz would have been the favorite in 84, even with USSR, other soviet block countries, and Iran in the field.
WrestlingRasta Posted March 16 Posted March 16 What Burroughs and to a large extent Snyder have done in Stars and Stripes, in the modern ‘competitive climate’..Post-Soviet, International Free Agency) carries a lot of weight for me. In the John Smith days you had a group of three or four Russians training together for the purpose of that one guy beating Smith. In the Burroughs days you have the same group of Russians training together, but they all got a shot at him in the bracket. Not to downplay anything or anyone, but these are fun talks of picking straws, and that’s a pretty big straw. 3
GrandOlm Posted March 16 Posted March 16 On 3/16/2025 at 12:35 PM, WrestlingRasta said: What Burroughs and to a large extent Snyder have done in Stars and Stripes, in the modern ‘competitive climate’..Post-Soviet, International Free Agency) carries a lot of weight for me. In the John Smith days you had a group of three or four Russians training together for the purpose of that one guy beating Smith. In the Burroughs days you have the same group of Russians training together, but they all got a shot at him in the bracket. Not to downplay anything or anyone, but these are fun talks of picking straws, and that’s a pretty big straw. Expand In John Smith's era and before, it was not uncommon for Americans to view "amateur wrestling" as something like post grad or an overseas study trip. You did it for a couple years (wherever you happened to land in the Olympics cycle after college wrestling), hopefully you medaled at the Olympics and then you'd move on with your life to get a "real job". The economic situation was that these guys were getting nothing for wrestling. A fully paid head coaching job opens up and you're not wrestling anymore. If Smith and wrestlers of that era were given the economic security to wrestle as long as they were competitively viable like every Burroughs or Snyder can today, they wouldn't have retired at 26 and probably would have had much larger medal hauls (I think the Eastern Bloc won so much more medals in the cold war era partly because their wrestlers were professionals in all but name, like modern American wrestlers). Yeah there were a couple counter examples like Baumgartner or Rulon and the like. But it was bleak being an international wrestler in the US all the way to the 2000s. You were just hoping to cash in on the notoriety of the Olympics. 4
WrestlingRasta Posted March 16 Posted March 16 On 3/16/2025 at 3:54 PM, GrandOlm said: In John Smith's era and before, it was not uncommon for Americans to view "amateur wrestling" as something like post grad or an overseas study trip. You did it for a couple years (wherever you happened to land in the Olympics cycle after college wrestling), hopefully you medaled at the Olympics and then you'd move on with your life to get a "real job". The economic situation was that these guys were getting nothing for wrestling. A fully paid head coaching job opens up and you're not wrestling anymore. If Smith and wrestlers of that era were given the economic security to wrestle as long as they were competitively viable like every Burroughs or Snyder can today, they wouldn't have retired at 26 and probably would have had much larger medal hauls (I think the Eastern Bloc won so much more medals in the cold war era partly because their wrestlers were professionals in all but name, like modern American wrestlers). Yeah there were a couple counter examples like Baumgartner or Rulon and the like. But it was bleak being an international wrestler in the US all the way to the 2000s. You were just hoping to cash in on the notoriety of the Olympics. Expand All very valid
AZ_wrestling Posted March 16 Posted March 16 Burroughs Smith Bruce Snyder Taylor or Dake It’s hard to take seriously anyone who doesn’t have Snyder on their list. The guy has made 10 world/Olympic teams while winning 9 medals including four golds and three silvers. Kemp and Shultz aren’t in the same category of success. 3 1
de4856 Posted March 17 Posted March 17 So is it Big Bruce’s 13 World or Olympic medals, or John Smith’s perfect run? Tough call but I think 13 years is a long time to be one of the best in the world, that’s 7 more years than Smith. So I think it’s Big Bruce as our all time best. After those two I would say JB. Then it should be SnyderMan. He has 9 medals 4 of which are gold. Then it should be DT. Afterwards it could be Dake, Kemp, Dave Schultz. But I will say that a lot of wrestling we have today started with Dan Gable, so even though he only has two medals, he is a legend, and should be considered as one of our very best.
de4856 Posted March 18 Posted March 18 So both Dan Gable, and Cael Sanderson were incredible wrestlers, both in college and internationally. But was their impact on our sport more as a coach than as a competitor?
mspart Posted March 19 Posted March 19 Who was the most technical FS wrestler we have had. I would say Dave Schultz. He did not have all the medals but was active for a very long time and was the 1996 olympic favorite at his weight. His technique was second to none. mspart 2
SuperBonBon Posted March 19 Posted March 19 On 3/6/2025 at 10:04 PM, WrestlingRecords.com said: 2004 Cael was dangerous. I may be biased though Expand If Sazhid Sazhidov made the finals in 2004 it would have been a silver olympic medal for Sanderson. In 2003 the judges tried hard to give Sanderson the Gold in NYC but it was too obvious that Sazhidov was that much better. 1
mspart Posted March 20 Posted March 20 On 3/19/2025 at 7:38 PM, SuperBonBon said: If Sazhid Sazhidov made the finals in 2004 it would have been a silver olympic medal for Sanderson. In 2003 the judges tried hard to give Sanderson the Gold in NYC but it was too obvious that Sazhidov was that much better. Expand I don't disagree, but in 2004, Cael beat everyone and got the gold. Sazjid lost to the Korean who lost to Cael. So that says something. I am not saying Cael should be in the conversation, just saying he beat everyone that stepped on the mat with him at that Olympics. No one can take that away from him. mspart 1
jchapman Posted March 20 Posted March 20 On 3/18/2025 at 3:29 AM, de4856 said: So both Dan Gable, and Cael Sanderson were incredible wrestlers, both in college and internationally. But was their impact on our sport more as a coach than as a competitor? Expand Maybe its my era, but Gable as a competitor impacted our sport dramatically, even internationally. He was such a great coach, too. Even had success as a coach internationally, not only with his Hawkeyes, but as Team USA coach. Cael as a domestic collegiate competitor is the GOAT. Internationally he didn't have the global impact that Gable had, despite similar resumes. As a coach, he is getting right up there with Gable, so I would have to say his impact is more as a coach than competitor, especially at an international level. Craig Henning got screwed in the 2007 NCAA Finals.
BAC Posted March 21 Posted March 21 On 3/19/2025 at 7:08 PM, mspart said: Who was the most technical FS wrestler we have had. I would say Dave Schultz. He did not have all the medals but was active for a very long time and was the 1996 olympic favorite at his weight. His technique was second to none. mspart Expand It's hard to argue against this, though he was before my time. Probably the best counter is Smith himself, who really revolutionized leg attacks his low single and how he integrated it with his hi-c. Other guys who come to mind when I think of wrestlers who excelled mostly by virtue of technique, as opposed to athleticism (though everyone we're talking about here excelled in both), are Taylor and Cael. Zeke is also a popular answer to this question (won FILA's "most technical" award one year).
The Kid Posted March 21 Posted March 21 On 3/21/2025 at 2:56 PM, BAC said: It's hard to argue against this, though he was before my time. Probably the best counter is Smith himself, who really revolutionized leg attacks his low single and how he integrated it with his hi-c. Other guys who come to mind when I think of wrestlers who excelled mostly by virtue of technique, as opposed to athleticism (though everyone we're talking about here excelled in both), are Taylor and Cael. Zeke is also a popular answer to this question (won FILA's "most technical" award one year). Expand Dake has better freestyle technique than Taylor and Sanderson combined. 1
Ched64 Posted March 26 Posted March 26 On 3/12/2025 at 11:32 PM, mspart said: Should we forget Lee Kemp, Mark Schultz, Kevin Jackson, and Big Bruce? They did it when there was no financial advantage to do so. They did it definitely for the love. That has to count for something I would think. Win ranks them thusly for world championships: https://www.win-magazine.com/2023/09/11/26123/ 6 – Jordan Burroughs (74 kg 2011, 74 kg 2013, 74 kg 2015, 74 kg 2017, 79 kg 2021, 79 kg 2022), plus one Olympic Gold (74 kg 2012) 4 – John Smith (62 kg 1987, 62 kg 1989, 62 kg 1989, 62 kg 1990), plus two Olympic Golds (62 kg 1988 62 kg 1992) 4 – Kyle Dake (79 kg 2018, 79 kg 2019, 74 kg 2021, 74 kg 2022) 3 – Lee Kemp (74 kg 1978, 74 kg 1979, 74 kg 1982) 3 – Bruce Baumgartner (130 kg 1986, 130 kg 1993, 130 kg 1995), plus two Olympic Golds (+100 kg, 1984, 130 kg) 3 – Kyle Snyder (97 kg, 2015, 97 kg 2017, 97 kg 2022), plus one Olympic Gold (97 kg 2016) 2 – David Taylor (86 kg 2018, 86 kg 2022), plus one Olympic Gold (86 kg 2020) 2 – Kevin Jackson (82 kg 1991, 82 kg 1995), plus one Olympic Gold (82 kg 1992) 2 – Mark Schultz (82 kg 1985, 82 kg 1987), plus one Olympic Gold (82 kg 1984) 2 – Terry Brands (57 kg 1993, 57 kg 1995) 2 – J’den Cox (92 kg 2018, 92 kg 2019) 1 – Dan Gable (68 kg 1971), plus one Olympic Gold (68k 1972) 1 – Wayne Wells (74 kg 1970), plus one Olympic Gold (74 kg 1972) 1 – Dave Schultz (74 kg 1983), plus one Olympic Gold (74 kg 1984) 1 – Kenny Monday (74 kg 1989), plus one Olympic Gold (74 kg 1988) 1 – Tom Brands (62 kg 1993), plus one Olympic Gold (62 kg 1996) 1 – Kurt Angle (100 kg 1995), plus one Olympic Gold (100 kg 1996) 1 – Rick Sanders (52 kg 1969) 1 – Fred Fozzard (82 kg 1969) 1 – Lloyd Keaser (68 kg 1973) 1 – Stan Dziedzic (74 kg 1977) 1 – Chris Campbell (82 kg 1981) 1 – Bill Scherr (90 kg 1985) 1 – Zeke Jones (52 kg 1991) 1 – Melvin Douglas (90 kg 1993) 1 – Les Gutches (85 kg 1997) 1 – Sammie Henson (54 kg 1998) 1 – Stephen Neal (130 kg 1999) 1 – Bill Zadick (66 kg 2006) 1 – Logan Stieber (61 kg 2016) 1 – Thomas Gilman, 57 kg 2021 I bolded my top 5. I did not put Dake there because he won 2 golds at non Olympic weights. That experience helped him get to the Olympic weight for sure. His goal was to be the champ at an olympic weight obviously. Incredible wrestler but not top 5. mspart Expand Kemp also likely got shafted when, at the peak of his career, Russia invaded Afghanistan and the US boycotted the 1980 Moscow Olympics. If you get a chance, or haven’t already, that documentary on Kemp is extremely well done and highly entertaining. The part that involves Dan Gable is really something.
Eagle26 Posted April 1 Posted April 1 On 3/16/2025 at 10:31 PM, AZ_wrestling said: Burroughs Smith Bruce Snyder Taylor or Dake It’s hard to take seriously anyone who doesn’t have Snyder on their list. The guy has made 10 world/Olympic teams while winning 9 medals including four golds and three silvers. Kemp and Shultz aren’t in the same category of success. Expand That’s pretty much exactly how I see it. Top 4 should be easy. 1/2 is debatable between Burroughs and Smith but I’m giving the nod to JB. 3 is Big Bruce, 4 is Snyder, and 5 is another debate between DT and Dake. DT has the all important Olympic gold which is really the only thing that keeps him the conversation with Dake. I just can’t put him over Dake in any list because of how many times Dake actually beat him. Then again, I can’t put anyone in the top 5 all time that doesn’t have an Olympic gold. I don’t know what to do lol. Maybe Dake will get it done in 2028 and make it easy for us.
gimpeltf Posted April 1 Posted April 1 Only 1 Olympics and World's hadn't started yet but ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Reed 1 1
jchapman Posted April 1 Posted April 1 On 4/1/2025 at 10:23 AM, Eagle26 said: That’s pretty much exactly how I see it. Top 4 should be easy. 1/2 is debatable between Burroughs and Smith but I’m giving the nod to JB. 3 is Big Bruce, 4 is Snyder, and 5 is another debate between DT and Dake. DT has the all important Olympic gold which is really the only thing that keeps him the conversation with Dake. I just can’t put him over Dake in any list because of how many times Dake actually beat him. Then again, I can’t put anyone in the top 5 all time that doesn’t have an Olympic gold. I don’t know what to do lol. Maybe Dake will get it done in 2028 and make it easy for us. Expand If you can't put someone in the top 5 without an Olympic gold, how do you leave out someone with two Olympic golds? Craig Henning got screwed in the 2007 NCAA Finals.
Eagle26 Posted April 1 Posted April 1 On 4/1/2025 at 1:57 PM, jchapman said: If you can't put someone in the top 5 without an Olympic gold, how do you leave out someone with two Olympic golds? Expand 1904 and 1908 were a lot different times, so it’s hard to compare. There were no world championships then so we don’t know how many if any he would’ve won. Overall gold medal count is 2 for Mehnert and 4+ for everyone else. Olympics are weighted higher than worlds but IMO it’s not much if any more difficult of a feat. Plus, technically speaking, we all know guys today are waaaaay better than they were 120 years ago!
jchapman Posted April 1 Posted April 1 (edited) On 4/1/2025 at 3:05 PM, Eagle26 said: 1904 and 1908 were a lot different times, so it’s hard to compare. There were no world championships then so we don’t know how many if any he would’ve won. Overall gold medal count is 2 for Mehnert and 4+ for everyone else. Olympics are weighted higher than worlds but IMO it’s not much if any more difficult of a feat. Plus, technically speaking, we all know guys today are waaaaay better than they were 120 years ago! Expand I guess the debate comes down to the worth of specific Olympic Gold medals, which I understand. I suppose there could be arguments made for certain Olympic Silver or Bronze medals to be "worth" more than certain Olympic Golds. That's why we have message boards! Edited April 1 by jchapman 2 Craig Henning got screwed in the 2007 NCAA Finals.
Lleynor Posted Friday at 01:50 AM Posted Friday at 01:50 AM World Gold is great, but I don’t look at it as much when it’s in a non-Olympic weight. Just my personal observation. This is a fun debate. Top 3 are easy. The order is irrelevant, IMO. I guess Snyder is 4? I can’t help but wonder if 97 was watered down though, during his peak. He hasn’t changed one bit, and is so vulnerable now. He’s easily a top 5-7 in his class, which is AMAZING, but his Golds loss some flare for me once Sad grew into the weight.
The Kid Posted Saturday at 11:47 PM Posted Saturday at 11:47 PM On 3/15/2025 at 12:52 AM, Irani said: 1. John Smith 2x Olympic Champ, 4x World Champ. 181-10 wrestling record with a 95% win rate. He beat 45 World/Olympic medalists during his career and retired at 26. So he probably could've kept it rolling if he didn't start coaching. John Smith's Record: https://wrestlingrecords.com/wrestler/john-smith/ 2. Jordan Burroughs 1x Olympic Champ, 6x World Champ, 3x World Bronze. 248-21 wrestling record with a 92% win rate. He's beaten 70 World/Olympic medalists in his career so far. JB is definitely the modern era GOAT, having to take out Kyle Dake and David Taylor multiple times to make the US team. JB's Record: https://wrestlingrecords.com/wrestler/jordan-burroughs/ 3. Dave Schultz 1x Olympic Champ, 1x World Champ, 3x World Silver, 2x World Bronze. 489-88-1 wrestling record with an 85% win rate. He beat 53 World/Olympic medalists during his career. He holds the US record for most senior level freestyle wins, and is the only American to win the Tbilisi tournament twice. His 1984 gold medal may have an Asterix, but he was deprived from wrestling in the 1980s Olympics which he most likely would have won, and his Tbilisi gold may be as good if not better than an Olympic gold medal 4. David Taylor Overall Record: 158-23 Win Percentage: 87.29% Pins: 28 Techs: 69 Once he peaked, he was unbeatable. 1 Olympic gold, 3 world golds, one world silver, one world bronze. He dominated one of the best wrestlers of all time, Hassan Yazdani, and would have won more gold it if were not for his injury. David Taylor's Record: https://wrestlingrecords.com/wrestler/david-taylor/ 5. Bruce Baumgartner 4 Olympic medals, including two golds. Enough said! Overall Record: 361-39 Win Percentage: 90.25% Pins: 75 Techs: 79 Bruce Baumgartner's Record: https://wrestlingrecords.com/wrestler/bruce-baumgartner/ Expand Snyder over Taylor in every possible scenario...even fantasy matches.
AgaveMaria Posted Monday at 03:54 PM Posted Monday at 03:54 PM Dan Gable may be slighted by many who are younger. Those of us who were there know the reality. The Russians were scared of Gable. The story of them scouring the land for someone, anyone - to beat him are true. He dominated. A grinder on the mat - he ground the competition into it with unrelenting arm bars that would numb the shoulder. He punished opponents. He had a major effect on his fellow wrestlers and many of them credit him for helping them improve. He had a short international career. Many on those days faced that reality. Hard to make a living as a competitor in the US. For sheer domination we have not seen anyone at that level since he retired. ” Never attribute to inspiration that which can be adequately explained by delusion”.
Ryder Smith Chattanooga Christian, Tennessee Class of 2026 Committed to Little Rock Projected Weight: 285
Connor Bercume Detroit Central Catholic, Michigan Class of 2025 Committed to Harvard Projected Weight: 285
Faith Bartoszek Wrightstown, Wisconsin Class of 2025 Committed to Lehigh (Women) Projected Weight: 138, 145
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