What D-1 Coach does alot with less

[Wrestleknownothing]

37 minutes ago, Gus said:

They have had good depth most of the last five year. Their failure has been to have top 10 guys. They have consistently had guys in the 20-33 range. 

I guess I am too focused on the end of the year. I went back and checked 2024 rankings. They had 9 ranked guys in the pre-season. It was down to 7 by the turn of the year. And dropped to 5 in March. 2023 started at 10 and dropped to 8 by the turn of the year, then stayed there the tournament.

[Gus]

2 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I guess I am too focused on the end of the year. I went back and checked 2024 rankings. They had 9 ranked guys in the pre-season. It was down to 7 by the turn of the year. And dropped to 5 in March. 2023 started at 10 and dropped to 8 by the turn of the year, then stayed there the tournament.

Yeah they have had trouble getting guys over the jump. I have always thought it was gonna click for Picklo but at this point that is seeming unlikely. 

[fishbane]

21 hours ago, BAC said:

This would've been the right answer a decade ago, during his Edinboro years, but now his teams at WVU seem more middle-of-the-pack.  Honestly, I expected more.

Agree with most of the other names given, but Schwab takes the overall prize by a landslide.

It's really an indictment of the times if Schwab takes this by a landslide.  All of UNI's AA finishes over the past 5 seasons have been by one wrestler Parker Keckeisen.  Schwab's done a good job, but he's had 15 years to build things up and hasn't cracked the top 10 - maybe this will be the year? 

If Luke Smith gets 3 years out of Ferrari at Bakersfield he's probably ahead.  From 3-33 over the past 3 years to possibly top 20? at NCAAs.  Smith didn't even have an assistant at the start of the season.

[BAC]

1 hour ago, fishbane said:

It's really an indictment of the times if Schwab takes this by a landslide.  All of UNI's AA finishes over the past 5 seasons have been by one wrestler Parker Keckeisen.  Schwab's done a good job, but he's had 15 years to build things up and hasn't cracked the top 10 - maybe this will be the year? 

If Luke Smith gets 3 years out of Ferrari at Bakersfield he's probably ahead.  From 3-33 over the past 3 years to possibly top 20? at NCAAs.  Smith didn't even have an assistant at the start of the season.

I don't think you can fairly answer this question (what D1 coach does a lot with less) simply by looking at NCAA finishes.  It's useful for differentiating the very top teams, but not for differentiating the next tier of teams.

Consider, for example, two different hypothetical mid-tier D1 schools, each of whom is only able to attract a mediocre group of recruits.  Coach 1 is killing it with them, and by the end of 4 years, the average WrestlStat ranking of his starters is 25, with all in the 20-35 range. Coach 2 is mailing it in, and after 4 years, his starters have an average WrestlStat ranking of 95.  Huge difference!  Problem is, NCAA results don't show it, since neither team has guys who are able to put up any points at the big show.  And if Coach 2 happens to have one guy who suddenly gets good, his team may place higher at NCAAs than Coach 1, despite his overall team being far worse.

Last year, for example, Minnesota took 22nd at NCAAs, while Air Force took 21st.  Does that mean Air Force is a better program overall than Minnesota?  I don't think anyone would say that.  Pretty much all of Air Force's 21.5 points came from a single guy. Everyone would agree Minny is the stronger program overall, and in a dual, Minny would win 9 out of 10.

You make the point that Keckeisen was sort of like Hendrickson last year, accounting for almost all of UNI's points.  That's fair as far as it goes, but ignores the rest of the team. Most regard UNI so highly is that their team may not be a bunch of AAs, but they're all hammers, up and down the lineup. Schwab's like Coach 1 in the above example, taking a group of guys who weren't highly recruited, and making them good enough that they can hold a team like Nebraska to single digits on a given day.    

True, they don't have many clear AA candidates beyond Keckeisen (there's Downey, maybe Happel), but their worst-ranked guy is #31, and second worst is #21. How many other schools can say that about their second-worst starter is #21 or better? They're an absolute nightmare in a dual -- arguably top 5 in the country.

And they're doing this with nothing. Most years they don't crack the top 20 in recruiting rankings, and the best they've ever been ranked by Flo the in the past 5 recruiting classes (2020-24) is 18th. 

So no, I don't think it's any sort of "indictment of the times" to say Schwab takes the prize for Who Does Most With the Less.  Without Keckeisen in their lineup, their NCAA point total will go down, but UNI will still have a monster lineup and win a ton of duals over schools with higher-ranked recruiting classes.

Edited January 8 by BAC

[creek chub]

Not sure it meets the criteria but VT under Robie, and going back to Dresser are only one of three or four teams with 3+ AA’s each year for over ten years running 

[Wrestleknownothing]

28 minutes ago, creek chub said:

Not sure it meets the criteria but VT under Robie, and going back to Dresser are only one of three or four teams with 3+ AA’s each year for over ten years running 

Only Iowa, Cornell, and PSU can match that. Cornell makes it on a technicality since they technically had zero in 2021.

Iowa's streak is 49 tournaments.

Cornell's streak is 20 tournaments.

PSU's streak is 14 tournaments.

Virginia Tech's streak is 11 tournaments.

[fishbane]

39 minutes ago, BAC said:

...

So no, I don't think it's any sort of "indictment of the times" to say Schwab takes the prize for Who Does Most With the Less.  Without Keckeisen in their lineup, their NCAA point total will go down, but UNI will still have a monster lineup and win a ton of duals over schools with higher-ranked recruiting classes.

In the past doing the most with less could be Mike DeAnna at Edinboro, Bruce Baumgartner at Edinboro, Tim Flynn at Edinboro, Jack Spates at Cornell, Rob Koll at Cornell, Brian Smith at Missouri, or Kevin Dresser at Virginia Tech.  These all produced top ten teams with multiple AAs and solid dual squads. Now a UNI that placed 14th last year with 1 AA is a landslide ahead of everyone else?  That's a landslide or two behind what was previously possible.

I didn't say nor imply that 2025 UNI would be akin to the 2024 Air Force Academy lineup - all one guy.  They are better than that.  Your comparison could have been close if Hendrickson had chosen a different branch of the service.  UNI is like if you added Parker Keckeisen to the 2024 Navy lineup or maybe 2025 Army.  Kolat and Kevin Ward do a good job with their programs but you have Schwab a landslide ahead of them at UNI.  That landslide could be named Parker Keckeisen.

I also think that you are underestimating the job Tim Flynn has done at WVU.  Last year they finished 17th at NCAAs with was their best finish in 20 years.  They had 2 AAs which is one more than UNI and the first time they had 2 AAs in a season since Greg Jones graduated.  But it's not all about NCAAs.  At Big 12s they were just 2.5 points back of Doug Schwab's landslide.  When Flynn took over WVU had produced 4AA finishes by two wrestlers (Rader and Moisey) in the previous 13 years.  Flynn has 5 AAs in 5 tournaments.  He might have even had an NCAA champ had the 2020 tournament not been cancelled. This is Schwab's 15th season in Cedar Falls and he has coached 15AAs to date.  Flynn coached 33 in 21 seasons in Edinboro.

[Bigbrog]

Bono?

[666]

On 1/6/2025 at 5:38 PM, The_KC_Godfather said:

Brian Smith...

I was super pissed that OU didn't hire Smith as HC when they had the chance. 

[BAC]

50 minutes ago, fishbane said:

In the past doing the most with less could be Mike DeAnna at Edinboro, Bruce Baumgartner at Edinboro, Tim Flynn at Edinboro, Jack Spates at Cornell, Rob Koll at Cornell, Brian Smith at Missouri, or Kevin Dresser at Virginia Tech.  These all produced top ten teams with multiple AAs and solid dual squads. Now a UNI that placed 14th last year with 1 AA is a landslide ahead of everyone else?  That's a landslide or two behind what was previously possible.

Once again, you're relying on NCAA placement as the measure of answering the "Who does the most with less" question, even though it's a terrible quantifier for this purpose.

UNI is ranked #7, and just wrecked #4 Nebraska 24-9.  Even the matches they lost, they were competitive with them.  Will they be a top 10 year at NCAAs this year?  Maybe, maybe not.  My guess is no, because outside of Keckeisen, they have no returning AAs in the lineup. They're just super solid top to bottom, with an average starter ranked around #15.

Maybe you just value tournament scores way more than dual meets.  You're entitled to your view.  I suppose you are one of those who think Air Force was "better" last year than Minnesota, because Hendrickson's NCAA pins gave Air Force more overall NCAA points than Minnesota -- even though Minny would crush them in 9 of 10 weight classes.  I just disagree.  I'm more impressed by a coach that can coach up his entire team to be top 20ish, than I am by a coach who can create a single NCAA champ, or a coach who can help create 2-3 stars while every other starter is sub-500. The latter team is going to score better at NCAAs, but I don't think that makes them the better coach, or the better team.

I'd also put the coaching results of Schwab and his staff against any of the coaches/teams you mentioned. First off, while they might outscore Schwab's current UNI team at NCAAs, they'd lose to them in a dual more often than not.  Second, many of the coaches you mentioned are famously excellent recruiters.  I'm not dissing Schwab's recruiting, but as I mentioned, his recruiting classes are almost never in the top 20, and the highest rank I could find from recent years is 18th.  Not surprising, as they're third in line behind Iowa and ISU at the Iowa recruiting trough.  Yet here they are, one of the best top-to-bottom teams in the country.  So if "Who does most with the least" is, at bottom, a measure of who's able to get the most out of their recruits -- and I think it is -- I'd put Schwab up against anyone.  

So I disagree that there's a "landslide or two" separating what Schwab's done at UNI from what the other excellent coaches you mentioned have accomplished at their teams.  I think Schwab's accomplishments are right there with them, and in some instances surpass them.

[BAC]

1 hour ago, fishbane said:

 UNI is like if you added Parker Keckeisen to the 2024 Navy lineup or maybe 2025 Army.

This is such a bad take.  If you remove Keckeisen from the lineup of the UNI team against Nebraska (but leave in the backup at 133), the average WrestlStat ranking of those 9 wrestlers is 15.7.  The average ranking of Army's starters in their last dual is 49.7 -- with not a single guy ranked better than UNI's 15.7 average (sans Keckeisen).  The average ranking of Navy's starters in the last dual of 2024 was even worse -- 57.8, with only one guy ranked better than 15.  

I'm getting the sense you don't realize how good UNI really is, with or without Keckeisen.

1 hour ago, fishbane said:

I also think that you are underestimating the job Tim Flynn has done at WVU.

I like Flynn.  What he accomplished at Edinboro is legendary.  At WVU, surely his teams are an improvement over Henson's tenure, and the dark latter years of Turnbull.  But honestly, that's a really low bar. 

I think a lot of us were hoping that if you put Flynn at a place like WVU -- in the back yard of the wrestling hotbeds of Ohio and Western PA, plus being the only legit D1 option for in-state WV wrestlers, fully funded -- he'd be able to elevate the program back to top 10-15 status, as Turnbull achieved in his heyday. It hasn't happened.  He's brought the program back to respectability, and made it competitive, which is good.  But to me, that's meeting expectations but not exceeding them. With a recruiting base that is so much better than a place like UNI or Edinboro, I wouldn't be setting off fireworks for placing 17th.

I like their future though. I feel like some guys aren't improving the way I'd hope to see (Conley, Titus, Hillegas), but Watters and Hall look like hammers. Curious to see how Rune Lawrence develops. 

[Greenwave]

Let’s see if UNi wives, Roper and Schwab wives can stay off of the UNI platform for their own agendas.   Can’t believe the AD / School has not stepped in at the expense of the student athletes.   Our boys don’t need their help and it’s killing recruiting.

[TylerDurden]

6 minutes ago, Greenwave said:

Let’s see if UNi wives, Roper and Schwab wives can stay off of the UNI platform for their own agendas.   Can’t believe the AD / School has not stepped in at the expense of the student athletes.   Our boys don’t need their help and it’s killing recruiting.

Can someone translate, please? 

[BruceyB]

45 minutes ago, TylerDurden said:

Can someone translate, please? 

Thank you, I was going to ask the same thing.

[Winners Circle]

20 hours ago, Bigbrog said:

Bono?

Actually at SDSU I think he did a pretty damn good job of it. In 2017 they finished 16th as a team, and had two AA's (one of which was a finalist and the other was Alex Kocer, who was unseeded). In 2018 they finished 12th as a team, had 3 AA's (one of which was a champ and the others were Luke Zilverberg, who was 13 seed, and David Kocer, who was 11 seed) and one bloodround finisher. Putting guys like the Kocer bros on the podium is the name of this thread. Pretty damn good run for a mid-major imo.

[fishbane]

17 hours ago, BAC said:

This is such a bad take.  If you remove Keckeisen from the lineup of the UNI team against Nebraska (but leave in the backup at 133), the average WrestlStat ranking of those 9 wrestlers is 15.7.  The average ranking of Army's starters in their last dual is 49.7 -- with not a single guy ranked better than UNI's 15.7 average (sans Keckeisen).  The average ranking of Navy's starters in the last dual of 2024 was even worse -- 57.8, with only one guy ranked better than 15.  . 

I thought Navy was the closer match and I based it on their dual performance last year.  This time last year Navy was undefeated, WS had them ranked #16 and there was a case for them as a top ten dual team.  I recall thinking at the time a top ten dual team without a top ten wrestler in the lineup.  Wouldn't that be interesting?  A team that is greater than the sum of its parts.  

The case for them to be considered a top ten dual team was pretty straightforward.  They had beaten Pittsburgh by a fair margin and Pittsburgh had beaten Ohio State who was ranked #3 by WS at the time.  So Navy>Pitt>Ohio State.  Navy had also defeated Illinois, so Pitt wasn't their only significant win.  They probably had 6 wrestlers in the top 30 at the time. Ultimately it ended up not working out. Navy dropped a series of duals late in the season and David Key finished 8th at NCAAs.  So they had a top ten wrestler and weren't a top ten dual team.

On the tournament side if you take Navy's 2024 NCAA points (13) and add Parker Keckeisen's 2024 points (26) to it you get very close to UNI's 2024 NCAA point total (39.5).  UNI is better this year than last, but Keckeisen may score fewer points this year too.  I also think this could be the high water mark for UNI in the WS rankings.  The Nebraska win was a great result, but we may look at Nebraska a little differently after Big Ten duals.  They made a lot of lineup changes and the rankings still have lingering effects of the wrestlers performance at their old weights.  On the other side UNI is likely to take a loss or two in Big 12 duals.  

18 hours ago, BAC said:

I'm getting the sense you don't realize how good UNI really is, with or without Keckeisen.

It's possible.  I think UNI without Keckeisen would probably be pretty close to the average UNI team under Schwab.  8-6 dual record, 1 AA, ranked in the 10-20 range with about 7 NCAA qualifiers. They would have a big win over a top ten team, but also lose to an unranked team. UNI the past 2-4 years would be below that average without him.

I was wrong about Schwab at UNI - they had a top ten team in 2014.  They were 13-0 with 7 NQ and 3 AAs.  WS had them ranked #10 in duals.  Their AAs were Colon (3rd), Labor (6th), and Peters (6th).  Ryan Loder was also on that team.  He had placed at NCAAs the year before. Moore was also seeded 10th at NCAAs.  For some reason UNI had their finish at 15th for this year in their media guide so I missed it.  It's better than I thought,   still if the high mark now is a borderline top ten team and that's a landslide ahead of everyone else that isn't great.  In the past multiple top 10 and top 5 finishes by miid tier program were possible.  Now PSU might have a second team better than UNI.

18 hours ago, BAC said:

I think a lot of us were hoping that if you put Flynn at a place like WVU -- in the back yard of the wrestling hotbeds of Ohio and Western PA, plus being the only legit D1 option for in-state WV wrestlers, fully funded -- he'd be able to elevate the program back to top 10-15 status, as Turnbull achieved in his heyday. It hasn't happened.  He's brought the program back to respectability, and made it competitive, which is good.  But to me, that's meeting expectations but not exceeding them. With a recruiting base that is so much better than a place like UNI or Edinboro, I wouldn't be setting off fireworks for placing 17th.

I like their future though. I feel like some guys aren't improving the way I'd hope to see (Conley, Titus, Hillegas), but Watters and Hall look like hammers. Curious to see how Rune Lawrence develops. 

I get it, but things take time.  Turnbull didn't have a top 10-15 team for his first 10 or so years. Things need to line up just right too and it's gotten a little harder to do recently.  These recruits he's getting aren't top 10-15 guys.  With 80 AA places each year distributed over 4-5 recruiting classes.  Only the top 16-20 guys in a class are really projected to make the podium.  Recently there have been more guys getting 6th and 7th years of eligibility. A recruit like Titus came along at exactly the wrong time.  I think if you look at # of AAs and national champs per recruiting class there will be fewer in the class of 2021 and to a lesser extent subsequent years due to COVID. Conversely the class of 2020 will probably have a peak in AAs and champs that it doesn't really deserve.  Things are finally starting to clear out and get back to normal.

WVU nearly had a big win over ISU last night.  All they needed to win was a healthy Watters to wrestle and beat Painero Johnson.  Unfortunately, Watters is injured and out for the year.  WVU will do well to equal their 2024 finish without him.

[MPhillips]

15 hours ago, TylerDurden said:

Can someone translate, please? 

Sounds like he's saying that Roper's and Schwab's wives are big mouths...

[Gus]

3 hours ago, Winners Circle said:

Actually at SDSU I think he did a pretty damn good job of it. In 2017 they finished 16th as a team, and had two AA's (one of which was a finalist and the other was Alex Kocer, who was unseeded). In 2018 they finished 12th as a team, had 3 AA's (one of which was a champ and the others were Luke Zilverberg, who was 13 seed, and David Kocer, who was 11 seed) and one bloodround finisher. Putting guys like the Kocer bros on the podium is the name of this thread. Pretty damn good run for a mid-major imo.

There was a reason that Wisconsin gave Bono a large contract after his time at SDSU. The team had a lot of success under him. But I can assure you that we are happy to have coach Hahn now. It seems as if Bono can wear out his welcome rather quickly in places. Fair or not, that is the perception. 

[Winners Circle]

35 minutes ago, Gus said:

There was a reason that Wisconsin gave Bono a large contract after his time at SDSU. The team had a lot of success under him. But I can assure you that we are happy to have coach Hahn now. It seems as if Bono can wear out his welcome rather quickly in places. Fair or not, that is the perception. 

Oh absolutely. That excerpt was in no way a shot at the current state of SDSU. More so just a defense of Bono's time at SDSU.

[BruceyB]

4 minutes ago, Winners Circle said:

Oh absolutely. That excerpt was in no way a shot at the current state of SDSU. More so just a defense of Bono's time at SDSU.

I am genuinely curious how Bono still has the job at Wisconsin. I'm sure there are examples, but I find it kind of hard to imagine there have been many hires that have been such a complete disaster. I am assuming they are now the worst team in the B10 as they only have 2 ranked wrestlers.. #27 Rivera at 125, and #29 Fugitt at 133. I would have actually thought it would be impossible for a B10 team to only have 2 wrestlers in the top 33 in the country, but here we are.

[Wrestleknownothing]

9 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

I am genuinely curious how Bono still has the job at Wisconsin. I'm sure there are examples, but I find it kind of hard to imagine there have been many hires that have been such a complete disaster. I am assuming they are now the worst team in the B10 as they only have 2 ranked wrestlers.. #27 Rivera at 125, and #29 Fugitt at 133. I would have actually thought it would be impossible for a B10 team to only have 2 wrestlers in the top 33 in the country, but here we are.

Sadly there is someone below them

Which raises the question, what is your over/under for PSU vs MSU tomorrow? WrestleStat has it at 43 (43-0). I think I have to take the over. Seems like another 50ish point win to me.

Edited Thursday at 10:02 PM by Wrestleknownothing

[fishbane]

9 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Sadly there is someone below them

Which raises the question, what is your over/under for PSU vs MSU tomorrow? WrestleStat has it at 43 (43-0). I think I have to take the over. Seems like another 50ish point win to me.

Is the last column WrestleStat?  I'm only seeing three top 33 wrestlers for Purdue at WrestleStat.

[ionel]

14 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

 

Which raises the question, what is your over/under for PSU vs MSU tomorrow? WrestleStat has it at 43 (43-0). I think I have to take the over. Seems like another 50ish point win to me.

I'm just glad they put this one on the full BTN and didn't relegate it to the streaming B1g+ cause for such an important dual it'll be so much easier for folks to find it and switch over from that meaningless football game.  

[Wrestleknownothing]

8 minutes ago, fishbane said:

Is the last column WrestleStat?  I'm only seeing three top 33 wrestlers for Purdue at WrestleStat.

The rank next to their name on the individual page includes things like non-starters and redshirts. Go to this page to find the rank of just starters.

https://www.wrestlestat.com/d1/rankings/starters

Edited Thursday at 10:21 PM by Wrestleknownothing

[BruceyB]

6 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Sadly there is someone below them

That is too bad for Michigan St.