Why are there 8 All American spots?

[Grecojones]

Does anyone know what started this tradition? It seems pervasive across all levels NCAA USA wresting age groups etc 

[MPhillips]

I believe the eight DI AA started in 79. Before that it was six.

[ionel]

14 minutes ago, MPhillips said:

I believe the eight DI AA started in 79. Before that it was six.

Given NCAA took away the 4th place team trophy maybe we should go back to 6 AA, think of all the money we'd save.  

[Paul158]

In 1972 there were nearly 800 college wrestling programs. We are down to about 380. At the high school and college level placing in the top 6 in the 70's was quite challenging, especially in the powerhouse states. I think going to 8 was a great idea . Several of the states only had a one class tournament, making it difficult to even get to the state tournament. I believe California is a one class state still. Having 8 places helps grow the sport.

[MPhillips]

8 minutes ago, Paul158 said:

I believe California is a one class state still.

New Jersey and I believe Indiana. Maybe Kentucky and Hawaii?

[Jason Bryant]

In 1972 there were nearly 800 college wrestling programs.

No there were not.

[Husker_Du]

8 hours ago, MPhillips said:

New Jersey and I believe Indiana. Maybe Kentucky and Hawaii?

and Delaware

1 - CA, DE, HI, IN, KY, NJ

*(New England has a regional which is becoming very solid. If you think about it in terms of 1 state championship, it's pretty legit, imo)

2 - MD* NY, PA, TN, TX

* (Maryland is a little misleading because they have so many schools that are national prep and the bulk of the better kids go to prep schools)

The rest are 3+ 

[jdalu75]

12 hours ago, MPhillips said:

I believe the eight DI AA started in 79. Before that it was six.

If you go back far enough there were three, and defeated finalists had to wrestle off after the finals against the guys who had lost to the champion.  Some finalists wound up not placing, strange as that may seem these days.

There were six placewinners through the 60s and most of the 70s; when they first went to six a wrestler had to lose to a finalist in order to wrestle back and there were usually fewer than 32 wrestlers in a bracket -- when Mike Caruso won his first title in 1965 there were just 20 entrants at 123 and the 6th place finisher ended up with a record of 1-3 in the tournament .... his greatest accomplishment may have been drawing Mike as his first opponent.

By the late 1970s brackets were usually full and often had five or six pigtail draws (from which the top seeds were not exempt -- Mike Frick went 6-0 both times he won).  Full wrestlebacks didn't come in until the 1990s and seeding was spotty -- many worthy wrestlers went 0-1 and barbecue (doesn't have the ring that 0-2 does).  Awarding eight places (I'm not sure that the 7th and 8th placers received trophies in the early days; may have just been certificates) seemed more appropriate given the size of the tournament.

[Gus]

3 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

and Delaware

1 - CA, DE, HI, IN, KY, NJ

*(New England has a regional which is becoming very solid. If you think about it in terms of 1 state championship, it's pretty legit, imo)

2 - MD* NY, PA, TN, TX

* (Maryland is a little misleading because they have so many schools that are national prep and the bulk of the better kids go to prep schools)

The rest are 3+ 

SD an ND have 2 classes. Though I believe that both should just go to 1 class. 

[Winners Circle]

3 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

and Delaware

1 - CA, DE, HI, IN, KY, NJ

*(New England has a regional which is becoming very solid. If you think about it in terms of 1 state championship, it's pretty legit, imo)

2 - MD* NY, PA, TN, TX

* (Maryland is a little misleading because they have so many schools that are national prep and the bulk of the better kids go to prep schools)

The rest are 3+ 

I agree that New Englands is pretty solid. Usually the top 2-3 kids in each weight can scrap nationally. 

[Paul158]

6 hours ago, Jason Bryant said:

 

No there were not.

 

That is what the internet is saying when I googled it. Call them .  I know  there were probably 240 plus junior colleges. They actually said 780 . Which included DIVISION  1 ,Div 2, Div 3 , NAIA  and Junior Colleges. Do you have some different numbers. We have lost a lot of programs since 1972.

[Paul158]

6 hours ago, Jason Bryant said:

 

No there were not.

 

These numbers came from an article that was in the Oklahoman . April27 1997. by 1997 there were only 315 schools with wrestling. The numbers were provided by   Bob Bubb the Executive Director of the National Wrest. Coaches  Assoc. . From 1972 until 1997 He said they had lost 255 teams in NCAA div. 1,2,and 3.  So it looks like we lost 207 NAIA an Junior colleges during that time period. 

[Jason Bryant]

They weren’t all in existence at the same time. We never had that many programs simultaneously- I’ve been working to comb through actual archives to count a documented number of teams. The NCAA didn’t count participation stats until 1982. We have lost a bunch, but there’s been an ebb and flow.

It’s been a repeated unverifiable myth over the years. I don’t have that file that I’m working on at my disposal here in Istanbul , but the list of dropped teams I was first provided with (when I worked for the NWCA full-time) also had multiple schools counted multiple times due to name changes.

I can’t (yet) tell you what the actual high water mark is, but I can tell you with extreme confidence it’s not that high.

[Paul158]

45 minutes ago, Jason Bryant said:

They weren’t all in existence at the same time. We never had that many programs simultaneously- I’ve been working to comb through actual archives to count a documented number of teams. The NCAA didn’t count participation stats until 1982. We have lost a bunch, but there’s been an ebb and flow.

It’s been a repeated unverifiable myth over the years. I don’t have that file that I’m working on at my disposal here in Istanbul , but the list of dropped teams I was first provided with (when I worked for the NWCA full-time) also had multiple schools counted multiple times due to name changes.

I can’t (yet) tell you what the actual high water mark is, but I can tell you with extreme confidence it’s not that high.

The big number that would be hard to verify would be Junior colleges and Community  Colleges back in the 70's. I know California did not participate in the NJCAA tournament. But almost every one of their colleges had wrestling.

[Paul158]

2 hours ago, Jason Bryant said:

They weren’t all in existence at the same time. We never had that many programs simultaneously- I’ve been working to comb through actual archives to count a documented number of teams. The NCAA didn’t count participation stats until 1982. We have lost a bunch, but there’s been an ebb and flow.

It’s been a repeated unverifiable myth over the years. I don’t have that file that I’m working on at my disposal here in Istanbul , but the list of dropped teams I was first provided with (when I worked for the NWCA full-time) also had multiple schools counted multiple times due to name changes.

I can’t (yet) tell you what the actual high water mark is, but I can tell you with extreme confidence it’s not that high.

I wonder where Bob got the data he was using back in 1972? Which would be at the height of college wrestling in all divisions. Do they have any records hidden away from back then.  Like I said the California Community colleges had their own association and had their own tournament.

[Scouts Honor]

its about the top 25%

[Grecojones]

4 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said:

its about the top 25%

For a 32 man bracket. At Fargo it’s much smaller. Especially when they has fewer weight classes 

[ionel]

5 hours ago, Winners Circle said:

I agree that New Englands is pretty solid. 

Now there's two of em?  

[Jason Bryant]

12 hours ago, Paul158 said:

I wonder where Bob got the data he was using back in 1972? Which would be at the height of college wrestling in all divisions. Do they have any records hidden away from back then.  Like I said the California Community colleges had their own association and had their own tournament.

If I had to guess, he was probably just told that was the number. 

I've found most "records" prior to the internet are just spread via word of mouth. Someone said a number, it fit the narrative of dropped programs since 1972, the year most often used due to the passage of Title IX. Some of the lists I've pruned pointed to schools that "dropped" the sport prior to that. 

So from a speaking point narrative, saying we've lost x-amount of schools since the passage of Title IX implies that's the direct result, when there's more that was in play. Some schools started teams and then stopped after 2 years or the schools closed, or dropped athletics. The NJCAA doesn't really have great records, but thankfully, AWN really did a great job at at least publishing anything and everything they were sent. So that's the most likely way for me to come up with it.

One of my long-range products is going page-by-page to log all this stuff. I'm building historical tournament placement archives, team scores, etc. and as a by product, I can hae some semblence of a better idea of what we had, when we had it.

My problem isn't the junior colleges, rather its the dual affiliates - schools that competed in both the NCAA and NAIA. The NAIA doesn't have participation stats going back that far. 

[Paul158]

3 hours ago, Jason Bryant said:

If I had to guess, he was probably just told that was the number. 

I've found most "records" prior to the internet are just spread via word of mouth. Someone said a number, it fit the narrative of dropped programs since 1972, the year most often used due to the passage of Title IX. Some of the lists I've pruned pointed to schools that "dropped" the sport prior to that. 

So from a speaking point narrative, saying we've lost x-amount of schools since the passage of Title IX implies that's the direct result, when there's more that was in play. Some schools started teams and then stopped after 2 years or the schools closed, or dropped athletics. The NJCAA doesn't really have great records, but thankfully, AWN really did a great job at at least publishing anything and everything they were sent. So that's the most likely way for me to come up with it.

One of my long-range products is going page-by-page to log all this stuff. I'm building historical tournament placement archives, team scores, etc. and as a by product, I can hae some semblence of a better idea of what we had, when we had it.

My problem isn't the junior colleges, rather its the dual affiliates - schools that competed in both the NCAA and NAIA. The NAIA doesn't have participation stats going back that far. 

Thanks . I appreciate your efforts. Be safe over there. Hopefully we get a couple more qualified.

[wjd]

So in wrestling about 10% of starters end up being All American. Can you imagine if other sports did that. College basketball would  have a 35th team All American guard, point, guard, forwards and center. College football would be celebrating the 13th team All American QB.

Wrestling should just call them placer and perhaps label the top 2 or 3 All Americans.

[Husker_Du]

23 hours ago, Gus said:

SD an ND have 2 classes. Though I believe that both should just go to 1 class. 

roger that. my bad. 

[Gus]

5 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

roger that. my bad. 

It’s alright, just don’t let it happen again