Finesilver unable to compete in Olympic qualifier

[Eagle26]

Really sad to hear this!

[BAC]

This is a bunch of crap. Is this Turkey not letting them in, or Israel being overly fearful? The dreamkillers making these decisions should be identified and shamed. 

[Major Kong]

47 minutes ago, BAC said:

This is a bunch of crap. Is this Turkey not letting them in, or Israel being overly fearful? The dreamkillers making these decisions should be identified and shamed. 

Overly fearful? You evidently don't recall the Munich Olympics.

[billyhoyle]

1 hour ago, BAC said:

This is a bunch of crap. Is this Turkey not letting them in, or Israel being overly fearful? The dreamkillers making these decisions should be identified and shamed. 

You think team Israel will be welcomed with open arms? 

[BAC]

3 minutes ago, billyhoyle said:

You think team Israel will be welcomed with open arms? 

You think countries should bar their athletes from competing overseas, destroying their lifelong dream, unless they are certain the receiving country will shower them with colorful leis and adoring screaming fans?

Gee… It’s a wonder US athletes have ever been allowed outside the country at all.

Turkey would not be allowed to host if they did not provide baseline security assurances to all countries. This is Israel using its citizens as political pawns. 

[BAC]

38 minutes ago, Major Kong said:

Overly fearful? You evidently don't recall the Munich Olympics.

Dude that was 50 years and Israel is still going to the Paris games.  Looks to like they just got butthurt because the Last Chance is hosted by Turkey, a predominantly Muslim country whose President has been critical of the Gaza war, but nonetheless a NATO ally and complying with all UWW visa and security requirements.

No one thinks this has ANYTHING to do with security. Erdogan is a buffoon but tens of thousands of Jews live in Turkey and they have no travel restrictions on Israel. it’s making a point that Israel does not like Erdogan’s rhetoric. 

How about supporting the athletes, instead of the politicians who want to make political pawns of them?

Edited May 5 by BAC

[ionel]

17 minutes ago, BAC said:

 

Turkey would not be allowed to host if they did not provide baseline security assurances to all countries. 

You'd also think US universities would not host international student unless they can provide basic security and yet ...

[Ched64]

8 hours ago, BAC said:

Dude that was 50 years and Israel is still going to the Paris games.  Looks to like they just got butthurt because the Last Chance is hosted by Turkey, a predominantly Muslim country whose President has been critical of the Gaza war, but nonetheless a NATO ally and complying with all UWW visa and security requirements.

No one thinks this has ANYTHING to do with security. Erdogan is a buffoon but tens of thousands of Jews live in Turkey and they have no travel restrictions on Israel. it’s making a point that Israel does not like Erdogan’s rhetoric. 

How about supporting the athletes, instead of the politicians who want to make political pawns of them?

Maybe he is doing just that…I feel really bad for him but these are very strange times…I don’t think Israel is trying to make a statement by holding an American athlete out of a Last Chance qualifier…were I to guess, it is part of a broader security program designed to protect both the athletes and the detail assigned to guard them…I like your moxie though

[AgaveMaria]

Those in charge of the Olympic Games KNOW this will happen every time.

Why do they hold qualifiers in Nations that present a danger to some of the participants - as in this case a specific Nation: Israel?

They obviously support this type of bigotry or they would make sure no qualifying location was set in Nations where this happens.

[wrestle87]

12 hours ago, BAC said:

You think countries should bar their athletes from competing overseas, destroying their lifelong dream, unless they are certain the receiving country will shower them with colorful leis and adoring screaming fans?

Gee… It’s a wonder US athletes have ever been allowed outside the country at all.

Turkey would not be allowed to host if they did not provide baseline security assurances to all countries. This is Israel using its citizens as political pawns. 

Please remind me....how did the US do in the 1980 olympics?

[nhs67]

4 hours ago, wrestle87 said:

Please remind me....how did the US do in the 1980 olympics?

How did USSR do in the 1984?

-----------------------------------

The rest isn't a direct response to you, my friend, but a generalized statement:

Evil is evil, it doesn't matter what color it is painted.

We can make this political and say that it is dumb that they are not being allowed, albeit by whomever.  To ignore that Israel is doing comparable things to a peoples that Russia is also doing is a biased approach to viewing it.

I wish Russia would stop.  I also wish Israel would stop.  It is okay to want both and not be a ***ducking** idiot.

If the IOC had balls (they don't), they wouldn't allow a single nation (or it's competitors) that has active military personnel currently deployed in wartime exercises/missions.  Yes that means both Russia and Ukraine would not be allowed, as well as Israel.

Seems a shitty take to me, but I am having difficulty saying one country's actions are bad and another country's are not when evil is evil is evil.

[wrestle87]

2 hours ago, nhs67 said:

How did USSR do in the 1984?

-----------------------------------

The rest isn't a direct response to you, my friend, but a generalized statement:

Evil is evil, it doesn't matter what color it is painted.

We can make this political and say that it is dumb that they are not being allowed, albeit by whomever.  To ignore that Israel is doing comparable things to a peoples that Russia is also doing is a biased approach to viewing it.

I wish Russia would stop.  I also wish Israel would stop.  It is okay to want both and not be a ***ducking** idiot.

If the IOC had balls (they don't), they wouldn't allow a single nation (or it's competitors) that has active military personnel currently deployed in wartime exercises/missions.  Yes that means both Russia and Ukraine would not be allowed, as well as Israel.

Seems a shitty take to me, but I am having difficulty saying one country's actions are bad and another country's are not when evil is evil is evil.

There is no more heart button, which is exactly what this should be for.

Couldn’t agree more.

[Dogbone]

22 hours ago, BAC said:

Turkey would not be allowed to host if they did not provide baseline security assurances to all countries. This is Israel using its citizens as political pawns. 

What does baseline security mean?  So Israel doesn't think their athletes will be safe and need more than baseline security. 

Even if they have been guaranteed maximum military safety and it is politically motivated, it is the not the first nor will it be the last time international politics impact sports. 

Yes, it sucks for the athletes.  

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

22 hours ago, BAC said:

Dude that was 50 years and Israel is still going to the Paris games.  

Yep, and no one will do anything crazy to harm Israelis these days, right?

Why didn't the US go to the Worlds when they were in Iran? (less than 20 years ago)

Edited May 6 by Interviewed_at_Weehawken

[mspart]

Very sad for Mitch.   I'm sure he didn't see this coming and it is a very sad thing.   It would be nice if the qualifier were held in a different country, but Israel  being Israel, that might not matter.    Here in the US, there seems to be rising anti-semitism happening.   I don't know if that is the case in other countries but I would guess it is.  

I feel very bad for Mitch. 

mspart

[skandar]

Probably shouldn’t have chosen to represent a country that’s actively committing genocide.

[ionel]

3 minutes ago, skandar said:

Probably shouldn’t have chosen to represent a country that’s actively committing genocide.

What about representing a country who is actively supplying munitions to the country "committing genocide?"  

Edited May 6 by ionel

[BAC]

58 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Yep, and no one will do anything crazy to harm Israelis these days, right?

Then why aren't they boycotting the Olympics themselves?  They aren't.  There's going to be lots of Muslims in Paris and the risk of a '72 Munich-like event is exponentially larger there.  With all the world watching, there is a genuine risk that some nutjob may try to make a political statement. I would be sad if Israel took a pass on the Olympics but would understand it.

But instead, Israel decided to screw over ONLY their 5 wrestlers, in ONLY this one event in Turkey.  Does anyone seriously think the risk is higher to these 5 wrestlers than the Israeli delegation in Paris.  Come on.  No one besides us even knows about it.  

They singled out wrestling and singled out Turkey, not because there is any appreciable risk, but because they want to make cheap political points about Erdogan.  Google it, and you'll see the only news coverage about this is in the Israeli press.  Read those, and you'll see none of the Israel-affiliated articles makes any reference to any threat or any genuine lack of safety, but rather they talk about how meanly Errdogan talks about Israel, and they all reference this as an Israeli reaction to the trade dispute they accuse Turkey of starting last month by not allowing Israeli imports.

That's why I say the wrestlers are being used as political pawns and nothing more.  Its easy for Israel to do this to the wrestlers since it is a minor sport and its only 5 people, so the collateral damage is minimal, and they can still thump their chest about how they're going tit-for-tat with Erdogan in refusing to honor Turkey with their presence.  It is more similar to Iran's despicable refusal to wrestling Israeli athletes than it is to any sort of genuine security concern.

59 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Why didn't the US go to the Worlds when they were in Iran? (less than 20 years ago)

I'm not sure what you are talking about.  Are you referring to Iran denying visas to the US delegation 7-8 years ago due to Trump's Muslim ban, and then reversing course when a US court enjoined the policy?  Not sure what that has to do with this situation.

But if your point is that other countries do things for political reasons, yeah, sure.  I'm not suggesting it is only Israel who does it.  The question is:  is it warranted?  People still debate that with the 1980 Olympic boycott.  Personally, I don't fault a country for doing things to protect their athletes, but I do fault countries using their athletes to make a political statement under the facade of security concerns.  You should too.

[skandar]

4 minutes ago, ionel said:

What about representing a country who is actively supplying munitions to the country "committing genocide?"  

Well, he had 0 chance of repping the US.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

3 minutes ago, BAC said:

Then why aren't they boycotting the Olympics themselves?  They aren't.  There's going to be lots of Muslims in Paris and the risk of a '72 Munich-like event is exponentially larger there.  With all the world watching, there is a genuine risk that some nutjob may try to make a political statement. I would be sad if Israel took a pass on the Olympics but would understand it.

But instead, Israel decided to screw over ONLY their 5 wrestlers, in ONLY this one event in Turkey.  Does anyone seriously think the risk is higher to these 5 wrestlers than the Israeli delegation in Paris.  Come on.  No one besides us even knows about it.  

They singled out wrestling and singled out Turkey, not because there is any appreciable risk, but because they want to make cheap political points about Erdogan.  Google it, and you'll see the only news coverage about this is in the Israeli press.  Read those, and you'll see none of the Israel-affiliated articles makes any reference to any threat or any genuine lack of safety, but rather they talk about how meanly Errdogan talks about Israel, and they all reference this as an Israeli reaction to the trade dispute they accuse Turkey of starting last month by not allowing Israeli imports.

That's why I say the wrestlers are being used as political pawns and nothing more.  Its easy for Israel to do this to the wrestlers since it is a minor sport and its only 5 people, so the collateral damage is minimal, and they can still thump their chest about how they're going tit-for-tat with Erdogan in refusing to honor Turkey with their presence.  It is more similar to Iran's despicable refusal to wrestling Israeli athletes than it is to any sort of genuine security concern.

I'm not sure what you are talking about.  Are you referring to Iran denying visas to the US delegation 7-8 years ago due to Trump's Muslim ban, and then reversing course when a US court enjoined the policy?  Not sure what that has to do with this situation.

But if your point is that other countries do things for political reasons, yeah, sure.  I'm not suggesting it is only Israel who does it.  The question is:  is it warranted?  People still debate that with the 1980 Olympic boycott.  Personally, I don't fault a country for doing things to protect their athletes, but I do fault countries using their athletes to make a political statement under the facade of security concerns.  You should too.

Huh?

I''m not reading all of this. I'll skim.

Paris will have way, way better security than Istanbul.

And we missed the Worlds in 2002.  Specific threats made.  I was working with a team member and a coach when stuff started going down.  Please brush up on history.

[maligned]

15 hours ago, AgaveMaria said:

Why do they hold qualifiers in Nations that present a danger to some of the participants?

Avoiding all political tension spots is way easier said than done. If you just say certain nations will be excluded from hosting, you're making yourself into a political watchdog instead of a sports commission. 

Armenia and Azerbaijan are great wrestling nations that are, by and large, peaceful with the rest of the world--but that have had political tensions between themselves for decades. Do you exclude them from hosting, knowing that each country's wrestling body won't let their wrestlers attend an event in the opposite nation "for safety concerns"? I'm not sure it's UWW's job to police that when the nation is a proven "peaceful" nation historically and is a war-free spot at the moment. (And when perceived risks are often happening in real-time--long after the host site was already determined.)

Sadly, many legitimate contenders for Olympic spots from Armenia missed out on the Euro qualifier in Azerbaijan and have to try to qualify only in the World Qualifier (for the same reasons that Finesilver won't go to Turkey, in terms of his oversight deciding for him that it's not safe). 

Edited May 6 by maligned

[ionel]

10 minutes ago, skandar said:

Well, he had 0 chance of repping the US.

... but others are ...

[Dogbone]

17 minutes ago, BAC said:

 Does anyone seriously think the risk is higher to these 5 wrestlers than the Israeli delegation in Paris.

Yes.  Security will be much higher in Paris than in Istanbul.  

[skandar]

1 hour ago, ionel said:

... but others are ...

I have nothing to say in defense of the US politicians supporting the genocide. They will all rot for eternity. 
 

As for the individual athletes, there’s a difference to me between actively choosing to represent a country you have a vague connection to that's directly committing the atrocities versus representing a country that you grew up in, and have dreamed of repping your whole life. Finesilver is not Israeli. He made a choice.

[billyhoyle]

51 minutes ago, skandar said:

I have nothing to say in defense of the US politicians supporting the genocide. They will all rot for eternity. 
 

As for the individual athletes, there’s a difference to me between actively choosing to represent a country you have a vague connection to that's directly committing the atrocities versus representing a country that you grew up in, and have dreamed of repping your whole life. Finesilver is not Israeli. He made a choice.

According to your beliefs, but explain how Aaron Brooks just won an NCAA title and made the olympic team? 

Edited May 6 by billyhoyle