Coach Manning calling a spade a spade!

[NM1965]

4 minutes ago, Rassling said:

The sports needs more Mannings to step up to the plate to voice their concerns. Seems like he’s been holding in these thoughts for sometime.

Sounds like he's been nursing a grievance all the way back to 2017. 

[NM1965]

28 minutes ago, jajensen09 said:

Holy Cow you aren't paying attention at all

That's what my parents and teachers used to say. 

[Pinnacle]

I missed the part of the article where Manning lays out his solution to what he perceives to be a problem. 

 

[Rassling]

5 minutes ago, NM1965 said:

Sounds like he's been nursing a grievance all the way back to 2017. 

And waited 7 years to let loose. 

[Show_Me]

1 hour ago, PortaJohn said:

No way!  That would make the season even more irrelevant and  everyone is susceptible to a bad weekend, slight injury, sickness, girlfriend dumped you, etc.  One weekend shouldn't define your season as to whether or not you can wrestle at Nationals.  

Agree.  The Regular Season would beome even more of a joke which would be the deathe knell of D1 Wrestling as we know it.   

[Wrestleknownothing]

47 minutes ago, Dogbone said:

Didn't say it is a coincidence.  Manning is complaining because he thinks it impacted his guy (maybe it didn't) but he is fighting for his guy. 

You don't think Manning would do what JRobb did? Why? Just because Cael, doesn't?    If you go back to his original tweet, he specifically referenced when the coaches asked Cael at B1Gs if Suriano was wrestling so they could seed accordingly and Cael respond with you will have to see tomorrow, when he knew he wasn't wrestling a B1Gs, so he got the 1 seed.   

Its is not the exact situation as Schlatter nor is it exactly like Carter.   Not every situation is the same.  Is there gamesmanship being played, absolutely.   You can like the gamesmanship because it benefits your team or because Cael tells you to like it or you can hate it because it impacts your team. 

But maybe we should eliminate the gamesmanship  when it comes to qualifiers, is not that crazy of a position.  

I find nothing wrong with gamesmanship. That is just what people call strategy when they have been out-strategized. Most people fail to read and understand the rules of the game they participate in, even professionally. If they either do not know the rules, or do not like the rules, then change the rules.

It is important to note that in this case the rules were changed, and Starocci is the #9 seed as a result.

It is also worth noting that Starocci EARNED the #1 seed at the conference tournament. If Manning thinks it would be noble of him to reveal how injured he is, and truly believes that, so be it. It is naïve in the extreme.

Claiming Wilson, or anyone else, should be bailed out of the seed they earned by someone else's unconfirmed injury (remember none of you, I, Manning, or @jajensen09 yet know if Starocci will wrestle Thursday) is also naïve, and an awful idea.

[JimmyCinnabon]

35 minutes ago, Dogbone said:

Yes, it is mentioned in the article, linked in the original post, that I guess you didn't read.

You are correct, I did not read it before posting but I read through this thread. After reading the article it doesn't change anything about what I said. The crux of his complaint is that this type of thing goes back to how Suriano was handled, which has been disputed by more than one PSU wrestler who was on the team at the time. 

This seems like nothing more than Manning really advocating for one of his wrestlers, which is fine for him to do and two it just comes off as sour grapes that his 16-12 guy who placed 9th at the B1G tournament didn't get an at-large.

The idea that you seed a guy based on how healthy he is, is absurd. Where is the line here? Does every coach bring in a medical report about each of their wrestlers so it can be included in the seeding? If a guy needs to wear a knee brace or a shoulder brace are they to be seeded lower? You can go back throughout the tournament history and look at guys and say, "they were not even close to 100%" and then start leveling gamemanship accusations at coaches because they didn't walk into the seeding room and tell everyone their guy is hurt and to seed him lower than they normally would. That's just insane, which is 100% what Manning is claiming should happen in that article. 

Where is Manning's criticism of Tom Brands for not walking into the NCAA seeding room and telling everyone Spencer Lee doesn't have any ACLs so they need to seed him accordingly over the years? Did Tom Brands walk into the seeding room and tell everyone Michael Kemerer barely has two working shoulders and to dump his seed? What about Jayden Eierman two years ago? Of course not because that's insane but it's what Manning would like. When has Manning ever walked into a seeding room and told them to dump the seed of a guy on his team because he's not 100%? Never.

[VakAttack]

2 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I find nothing wrong with gamesmanship. That is just what people call strategy when they have been out-strategized. Most people fail to read and understand the rules of the game they participate in, even professionally. If they either do not know the rules, or do not like the rules, then change the rules.

It is important to note that in this case the rules were changed, and Starocci is the #9 seed as a result.

It is also worth noting that Starocci EARNED the #1 seed at the conference tournament. If Manning thinks it would be noble of him to reveal how injured he is, and truly believes that, so be it. It is naïve in the extreme.

Claiming Wilson, or anyone else, should be bailed out of the seed they earned by someone else's unconfirmed injury (remember none of you, I, Manning, or @jajensen09 yet know if Starocci will wrestle Thursday) is also naïve, and an awful idea.

To play devil's advocate, where does responsibility to the sport come in?  Because it's not like wrestling is a vibrant, thriving sport, and there is no overarching body that cares directly for the health of NCAA wrestling.  There are outside bodies that try to promote, like NWCA or USA Wrestling, but if our sport is slowly dying, do the coaches have some responsibility to maximize the product so that it's around for decades, or is their only responsibility to try to win each year?

[VakAttack]

I'd be interested to hear @Husker_Du's thoughts, since we know he has friends and connections with both programs, and is not afraid to let his voice be heard on difficult subjects.

[jammen]

31 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

Wilson had all season to not end up with 16W - 12L as his record.

As had #33 Valencia (11-13), #32 Bauman (12-14), #29 Faison (13-12), #28 Simma (15-9), and #24 Sparks (10-7).  #30 Takats got in on the strength of his 24-14 record, but notably lost to Husker backups Minto and Thebeau. 

Note that Sparks got in because of Starocci's inj def.  He lost three straight after that.  Three of his 10 wins are against teammates.  He didn't wrestle in the Minny-Husker dual.

Wilson (16-12) went 3-2 at the B1G and finished 9th.  He beat qualifers Simma and Valencia during the season.  It's clear that the seeding process needs a complete overhaul.

[NM1965]

4 minutes ago, jammen said:

As had #33 Valencia (11-13), #32 Bauman (12-14), #29 Faison (13-12), #28 Simma (15-9), and #24 Sparks (10-7).  #30 Takats got in on the strength of his 24-14 record, but notably lost to Husker backups Minto and Thebeau. 

Note that Sparks got in because of Starocci's inj def.  He lost three straight after that.  Three of his 10 wins are against teammates.  He didn't wrestle in the Minny-Husker dual.

Wilson (16-12) went 3-2 at the B1G and finished 9th.  He beat qualifers Simma and Valencia during the season.  It's clear that the seeding process needs a complete overhaul.

2 of Wilson's 3 wins at Big Tens came in the "true 9th place" mini tourney, not exactly a bunch of world beaters!!

Edited March 19 by NM1965

[Scouts Honor]

but not teammates

and were actual matches

[Dogbone]

24 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

If Manning thinks it would be noble of him to reveal how injured he is, and truly believes that, so be it. It is naïve in the extreme.

Claiming Wilson, or anyone else, should be bailed out of the seed they earned by someone else's unconfirmed injury (remember none of you, I, Manning, or @jajensen09 yet know if Starocci will wrestle Thursday) is also naïve, and an awful idea.

This is just made up, no one is saying any of this ^^^^.  

"Hey our guys is going to sit this one out and rest up for NCAAs so lets not put the 8/9 winner in the semis or give the 10 seed a birth to NCAAs without winning a match"  Has nothing to do with revealing injuries or bailing out of the seed (whatever that means).

Starocci earned the #1 seed and deserved it, but if he is not going to use it then I fail to see why it would matter to him or any PSU fan where he is seeded in a bracket since he isn't going to wrestle in. 

[Pinnacle]

36 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I find nothing wrong with gamesmanship. That is just what people call strategy when they have been out-strategized. Most people fail to read and understand the rules of the game they participate in, even professionally. If they either do not know the rules, or do not like the rules, then change the rules.

It is important to note that in this case the rules were changed, and Starocci is the #9 seed as a result.

It is also worth noting that Starocci EARNED the #1 seed at the conference tournament. If Manning thinks it would be noble of him to reveal how injured he is, and truly believes that, so be it. It is naïve in the extreme.

Claiming Wilson, or anyone else, should be bailed out of the seed they earned by someone else's unconfirmed injury (remember none of you, I, Manning, or @jajensen09 yet know if Starocci will wrestle Thursday) is also naïve, and an awful idea.

 

If Starocci does not wrestle they will claim shenanigans, and if he does wrestle they will claim shenanigans as well. This is all about the airing of grievances.

Manning should concentrate on making Nebraska better. 

[Antitroll2828]

2 hours ago, VakAttack said:

 

2 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

 

Edited March 19 by Antitroll2828

[Antitroll2828]

2 hours ago, VakAttack said:

 

2 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

 

Edited March 19 by Antitroll2828

[Pinnacle]

2 minutes ago, Dogbone said:

This is just made up, no one is saying any of this ^^^^.  

"Hey our guys is going to sit this one out and rest up for NCAAs so lets not put the 8/9 winner in the semis or give the 10 seed a birth to NCAAs without winning a match"  Has nothing to do with revealing injuries or bailing out of the seed (whatever that means).

Starocci earned the #1 seed and deserved it, but if he is not going to use it then I fail to see why it would matter to him or any PSU fan where he is seeded in a bracket since he isn't going to wrestle in. 

But he did use it. An inj default IS using it. 

Can you point me to Manning's new rule proposal. I'm sure it was posted somewhere and I just missed it. 

[Antitroll2828]

2 hours ago, VakAttack said:

Well there are some reliable narrators.  Come on now.  Let's not be blind.  His ankle was broken.  They didn't break any rules, but it's definitely a little morally gray.

I’m sorry why is Manning (a known cry baby) more reliable? He talking about how he knows Nick and he ll bite ears and wrestle through anything , yet leaves out the part where Suriano left penn state bc he wanted to wrestle and the staff though he was too injured still 

2 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

 

 

You didn't read the article, did you?

Yea I read the article and it’s still Mannings word Vs that of Matt McCutcheon, Marc Hall, Bo Nickal and Garrett Carr, all guys who were actually in the room with Nick , Mark hall literally said the reason he respects Nick so much is because he was in there training on broken ankle doing everything he could to get on the mat , but i should ignore all these voices for the one of a guy who got half the facts wrong the first time he spoke about this nonsense just a week ago.

[Antitroll2828]

2 hours ago, VakAttack said:

 

2 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Edited March 19 by Antitroll2828
Duplicate

[Dogbone]

34 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

I'd be interested to hear @Husker_Du's thoughts, since we know he has friends and connections with both programs, and is not afraid to let his voice be heard on difficult subjects.

On the show with Basch, I believe his position was to eliminate wild cards.  Treat NCAA birth like high school, you have to earn the bid on the mat and if you are sick or not healthy you don't get to go.  

[AgaveMaria]

2 hours ago, jajensen09 said:

For one,  they need put some kind of guidelines for a schedule.  Bump up # of matches needed to wrestle to 20. 15 matches in 4 months is Ridiculous. We are trying to grow the sport, but the "best" team never wrestles.   Also if they know a guy isn't going to wrestle, reseed him, don't wreck post seasons for everyone else. 

How about we make it "Minutes on the Mat" rather than total matches?

Twenty matches comes out to 140 Minutes of wrestling - if all go the limit & no overtimes.

So, 140 minutes of actual mat time as shown on the clock. Injury time, lung time, shoelace reties and blood time doesn't count. Only that time after the ref says "Wrestle" until the end of the match counts.

If you get a quick pin - you know you have to have some matches go into overtime to get your minutes. If you are an overtime type of wrestler - maybe you get along with fewer total matches?

If you are Cael you search for ways to work the clock or find loopholes - and then only spring them on the competition when you wrestle Nebraska?

 

[VakAttack]

6 minutes ago, Antitroll2828 said:

I’m sorry why is Manning (a known cry baby) more reliable? He talking about how he knows Nick and he ll bite ears and wrestle through anything , yet leaves out the part where Suriano left penn state bc he wanted to wrestle and the staff though he was too injured still 

I'm not relying on Manning, this has been a known and discussed issue since when it happened.  There's a reason it's literally a running joke in wrestling circles about "he's downstairs drilling right now."

[Antitroll2828]

2 hours ago, VakAttack said:

He's not wrong. PSU gamed the Suriano situation to try to minimize Picc's tournament scoring.  And it worked! It comes down to "what's the important thing?"  PSU coaches, is it solely their job to win, or do they bear some responsibility to "do right by the sport"?  I see both side of that argument.

 

ETA: i don't think the Starocci example is the same situation as Suriano.

Why would they need to minimize picc scoring? They finished 43.5 points ahead of 3rd place Oklahoma state , they had 5 champs and went into Stillwater a month prior and beat ok state 27-13 with 6 of those being the Suriano Inj.Def and by todays scoring Guilbon would’ve majored Heil. What was penn state minimizing scoring for? To help Ohio state finish in 2nd? 

[Dogbone]

12 minutes ago, Pinnacle said:

But he did use it. An inj default IS using it. 

Can you point me to Manning's new rule proposal. I'm sure it was posted somewhere and I just missed it. 

How is injury defaulting using the #1 seed?  

I'm sorry the article you just read didn't provide you with a question you are now demanding.   Manning raised an issue in his tweets, a writer asked him about it to clarify it and then wrote an article.  Maybe the author of the article should of asked for a proposal knowing this would be required by someone who thinks injuring defaulting is using the #1 seed, you will have to take it up with the author.

Edited March 19 by Dogbone

[wrestle87]

He's just being a good coach.  Not much else anyone can ask for.  Whether or not he makes any sense in that situation is...another matter.  But when coaches go to the mat for their kids, they famously eschew logic and reasoning, because frankly, it doesn't do a lot to really bolster team cohesion and to buoy the guy into next year.