Limiting the number of matches - any negative consequences?

[bnwtwg]

15 minutes ago, Le duke said:

Hendrickson got torn apart by Kerk, or are we pretending that didn’t happen now?


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He also had his knee ligaments torn apart in a tournament Kerk didn't attend because of durability issues, or are we pretending that didn't happen now?

[buckshot]

20 minutes ago, Le duke said:

 

Man, a coach focused on observing his wrestler’s performance vs a crazy person acting like a 5 year old, a la Terry Brands. How dare you, Cael Sanderson. Don’t you know this is a sport for the emotionally unstable?


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I'm not saying that somebody who thinks Cael Sanderson is lacking as a coach is stupid but...

[forkemaz]

1 hour ago, Le duke said:

 

Man, a coach focused on observing his wrestler’s performance vs a crazy person acting like a 5 year old, a la Terry Brands. How dare you, Cael Sanderson. Don’t you know this is a sport for the emotionally unstable?


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Totally, there's no such thing as a middle ground right? He doesn't need to join in the madness, but looking like the Stanczyk painting isn't edgy and cool its lame. I'm gonna photo shop cael with that emo hair cut bro I swear.

[lu_alum]

4 hours ago, TexRef said:

Ok, I'll bite. Who are the top states that have a number of matches as part of the seeding? 

For the state tourney in PA, it's a combination of Win Pct and Prestige Points.

I believe the process can vary across the various district tournaments.  I know the area where I grew up, PA District IV, uses Win Pct, subtracting 8pts for each match short of 10 bouts.  i.e., an 8-0 record would be scored as 100-2*8 = 84.

When I wrestled in the 1980s, the seeding formula favored guys who wrestled more bouts.  We were given 5pts for a win, and had 3pts subtracted for each loss, with prestige points being added afterward.  Not sure if any PA districts still use this type of scoring process.

[D3UC157]

You mentioned Cael and I’ve just now put it all together. He is behind reduced schedules and limiting matches.

That way if anyone does go undefeated, they won’t get anywhere close to. 159.

Big brain strategy. Coaching has been the long-game con. 

[1032004]

4 hours ago, forkemaz said:

Seriously watch Cael during the Haines vs Saldate match. I get valuing stoicism but the guy looks like he doesn't even want to be there. It's lame.

He cares.  Did you see his reaction when Nagao got pinned? Now that was funny

Edited January 24 by 1032004

[forkemaz]

3 hours ago, 1032004 said:

He cares.  Did you see his reaction when Nagao got pinned? Now that was funny

Nah only watched that one once. I'll rewatch it tonight

[jdalu75]

8 hours ago, buckshot said:

But it's really not, they'll send them to an open where they can rack up a bunch of easy wins. Look at what Hendrickson did at the David Lehman open at F&M, he won six matches, got five pins and the highest ranked guy he saw was Ghadiala. 

Ferere and Day are a lot better than average.  The miracle is that Hendrickson faced six Div I opponents at F&M, not a bunch of prep and RTC guys.  All six bouts count for him.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

14 hours ago, lu_alum said:

For the state tourney in PA, it's a combination of Win Pct and Prestige Points.

I believe the process can vary across the various district tournaments.  I know the area where I grew up, PA District IV, uses Win Pct, subtracting 8pts for each match short of 10 bouts.  i.e., an 8-0 record would be scored as 100-2*8 = 84.

When I wrestled in the 1980s, the seeding formula favored guys who wrestled more bouts.  We were given 5pts for a win, and had 3pts subtracted for each loss, with prestige points being added afterward.  Not sure if any PA districts still use this type of scoring process.

Thanks!

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

14 hours ago, 1032004 said:

He cares.  Did you see his reaction when Nagao got pinned? Now that was funny

I saw him throw a chair once.  People who like to trash Iowa pretend that has never happened.

[Pish]

16 hours ago, forkemaz said:

I have watched the match several times and noticed Cael specifically during the lock hand challenge I beleive. Everyone in the entire place is freaking out and he has a look on his face like he just dumped in his pants so he can't move.

Maybe that’s because he doesn’t act like you would or any other coach is the reason he’s the goat and you’re a hater?

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

17 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Not really quickly, but has been increasingly happening over several years.  Coaches are holding guys out of duals  for selfish reason, which I understand to an extent as a former coach.

However: for the sport to survive and thrive, a lot of these guys should make the long trip, the extra weight cut or wrestle with an ouchie or two.  I would hazard a guess that many of our better publicized "ducks" are guys that would be playing in an NCAA football game on Saturday if they had the same booboo or case of sniffles.  There's just no tangible incentive to do so right now.

Thus we are increasingly headed to a land where duals matter less and less and all that matters is one weekend in March.

[Pish]

5 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Not really quickly, but has been increasingly happening over several years.  Coaches are holding guys out of duals  for selfish reason, which I understand to an extent as a former coach.

However: for the sport to survive and thrive, a lot of these guys should make the long trip, the extra weight cut or wrestle with an ouchie or two.  I would hazard a guess that many of our better publicized "ducks" are guys that would be playing in an NCAA football game on Saturday if they had the same booboo or case of sniffles.  There's just no tangible incentive to do so right now.

Thus we are increasingly headed to a land where duals matter less and less and all that matters is one weekend in March.

Who are the teams that don’t care about duals?? Cornell..definetly, Arizona State..most likely. Michigan..not sure. 
 

Everyone else wrestling to win as far as I can tell. 
 

Seems you have a problem with maybe 3 teams..take it up with them

Edited January 25 by Pish

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

15 minutes ago, Pish said:

Who are the teams that don’t care about duals?? Cornell..definetly, Arizona State..most likely. Michigan..not sure. 
 

Everyone else wrestling to win as far as I can tell. 
 

Seems you have a problem with maybe 3 teams..take it up with them

Maybe, but undeniable that not everyone is putting out their best lineup if they know they can win without it.  This doesn't happen in BCS football.

Also: Cornell, Michigan, and Arizona State are three top ten teams (or should be.) This makes it extra disturbing.

Edited January 25 by Interviewed_at_Weehawken

[Pish]

9 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Maybe, but undeniable that not everyone is putting out their best lineup if they know they can win without it.  This doesn't happen in BCS football.

Also: Cornell, Michigan, and Arizona State are three top ten teams (or should be.) This makes it extra disturbing.

My thoughts on Duals..

1.  You try to win. This brings the fans

2.  If you think you can win and have a guy dinged up, sick, etc..no worries sit them

3.  You need everyone to win the dual?  Then you best better put everyone out there with the sniffles, minor tweak

Cornell and ASU over the years is the only teams that come to mind that will actually throw duals. That makes me sick, since if you want a big fan base, as a coach you should at least try to win 

[forkemaz]

1 hour ago, Pish said:

Maybe that’s because he doesn’t act like you would or any other coach is the reason he’s the goat and you’re a hater?

Maybe this is an argument made with absolutely no logic? The man who came closest to what he did is nothing like him. If we are just saying stupid things that don't follow any kinds of rules about proving something.

[Dogbone]

I don't think the lack of matches hurts the individual wrestlers. If anything, the lighter workload probably has them fresher for the 3 day grind of NCAAs.   They are practicing and getting better leading up to March, just in the room and not in competition.

It only hurts the fans who want to enjoy the season and get excited leading up to NCAAs.  I don't think we will go back to guys wrestling 40 matches a season, but we need to find a way to make the 20 matches they do wrestle meaningful. 

[Pish]

1 hour ago, forkemaz said:

Maybe this is an argument made with absolutely no logic? The man who came closest to what he did is nothing like him. If we are just saying stupid things that don't follow any kinds of rules about proving something.

What the hell are you talking about?  I read your post 3 times and still don't understand what you're trying to say here?

1.  I didn't make an argument

2.  You are crying in your other posts about Cael not showing enough emotion on the sideline.  What do you care what Cael's reactions are?

 

[Le duke]

Perhaps the care for his athletes and their best interests is the reason Penn State can sit the best wrestler in the country and beat Michigan 27-9.


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[Pish]

1 hour ago, Dogbone said:

I don't think the lack of matches hurts the individual wrestlers. If anything, the lighter workload probably has them fresher for the 3 day grind of NCAAs.   They are practicing and getting better leading up to March, just in the room and not in competition.

It only hurts the fans who want to enjoy the season and get excited leading up to NCAAs.  I don't think we will go back to guys wrestling 40 matches a season, but we need to find a way to make the 20 matches they do wrestle meaningful. 

The ways the rules are now, is you need 2 of 3 things to qualify a spot for your conference (winning% ( believe at 70%), top 25 or 33 in coaches rank, top 25/33 RPI.  I'm not sure if it's top 25 or 33..so someone can correct me.  You only need at least 8 matches and 1 within last 30 days for coaches rank.  You need 15 for RPI.

 

I believe coaches want as many of their guys to qualify a spot for their conference

Now after conference tourney, the NCAA seeding comes in to play with the formula they use for seeding which includes all of the above for qualifying a spot along with some other stuff.  This is where the lack of matches could hurt "most" wrestlers.  For example..you need 15 matches after conference weekend to get an RPI.  For those below 15 matches, they won't get an RPI ranking which will affect their seed.  The clear cut #1's (like a Brooks or Starocci) it doesn't matter where they get seeded, they not worried about being "on the wrong side of a bracket" as they will win regardless.  But for 99% of the wrestlers, seed does matter and placement and draws are a big component of where they end up on podium.

 

Long story short..if we want to see wrestlers wrestle more..up the numbers..make the coaches rank 12 and RPI 19.  If they did this, you would see more matches

Edited January 25 by Pish

[alex1fly]

This is missing from the conversation. What do the wrestlers want - a couple matches and then one post season tournament? 20 matches and two post season tournaments? Duals or no duals?

Also, is this devaluing of the regular season happening in other sports? Genuinely curious. 

[forkemaz]

1 hour ago, Pish said:

What the hell are you talking about?  I read your post 3 times and still don't understand what you're trying to say here?

1.  I didn't make an argument

2.  You are crying in your other posts about Cael not showing enough emotion on the sideline.  What do you care what Cael's reactions are?

 

Are you college educated Phish? You certainly did make an argument. You said Caels success as the Goat is likely do to his stoicism and somehow also contributes to me being a "hater". Would you like to defend it with any kind of proof? Or are you simply going to do an "appeal to authority" logical fallacy attack on me then claim you didn't make an argument? 

What you said was unprovable and a third grade insult. So I will return to my original point which is that the man preaches enthusiasm but gives interviews and watches the sport like someone just died. Do you caret refute it? 

[gimpeltf]

42 minutes ago, forkemaz said:

You certainly did make an argument.

[Pish]

1 hour ago, forkemaz said:

Are you college educated Phish? You certainly did make an argument. You said Caels success as the Goat is likely do to his stoicism and somehow also contributes to me being a "hater". Would you like to defend it with any kind of proof? Or are you simply going to do an "appeal to authority" logical fallacy attack on me then claim you didn't make an argument? 

What you said was unprovable and a third grade insult. So I will return to my original point which is that the man preaches enthusiasm but gives interviews and watches the sport like someone just died. Do you caret refute it? 

Cuckoo!!

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

2 hours ago, Le duke said:

Perhaps the care for his athletes and their best interests is the reason Penn State can sit the best wrestler in the country and beat Michigan 27-9.


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SDSU beat Michigan.

What about caring for the sport?