is OSU(ok) a desirable place to coach anymore?

[Hammerlock3]

It occurs to me because Papolozio was often mentioned as the likely successor, but he runs a dry program, which i'm sure is difficult but it would be really difficult at OSU. They don't have a lot of people at their dual meets, stillwater isnt a sell to me, just feels like the mojo is gone. 

I'm not saying its terrible, but i think a lot of us are operating under the misimpression that its still top 5 in terms of potential.

[AgaveMaria]

Always. Great tradition and good fan support even if not on the level of Iowa and Penn State.

In some ways John Smith has held them back. Appears as if his successor is on staff now. Hope it works out.

John is tired and frustrated and it shows.

[Hammerlock3]

4 minutes ago, AgaveMaria said:

Always. Great tradition and good fan support even if not on the level of Iowa and Penn State.

In some ways John Smith has held them back. Appears as if his successor is on staff now. Hope it works out.

John is tired and frustrated and it shows.

is it top 5 though? tradition doesn't mean anything at this point. And do they have great fan support?

I love john smith but your characterization is accurate.

[Hammerlock3]

checked and they were 5th in attendance last year.

[PortaJohn]

7 minutes ago, Hammerlock3 said:

is it top 5 though? tradition doesn't mean anything at this point. And do they have great fan support?

I love john smith but your characterization is accurate.

Oklahoma State wrestling is stuck in Notre Dame football purgatory 

Edited December 13, 2023 by PortaJohn

[Mr. PeanutButter]

I thought I read an interview with Smith after last year's champs (or maybe it was from 2 years ago) where he said he wanted to coach for a long time. 

[Hammerlock3]

1 minute ago, Mr. PeanutButter said:

I thought I read an interview with Smith after last year's champs (or maybe it was from 2 years ago) where he said he wanted to coach for a long time. 

but was he led by a question? hes not gonna deem himself a lame duck.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Hammerlock3

[AgaveMaria]

8 minutes ago, Mr. PeanutButter said:

I thought I read an interview with Smith after last year's champs (or maybe it was from 2 years ago) where he said he wanted to coach for a long time. 

When he took ove he was hell on Wheels as a coach. Did a great job and had them ready and winning. At that, he was not Gable nor now Cael. He had guys winning but then tapered off even as they were still top tier. Gable did have a four year drought but brought the program back to the top position. He also had them winning NINE in a row - something Cael has not yet accomplished. Instead Caels guys win a number of years and then retreat and reload. John is not in the same rarified atmoshere as those two no matter what. Good program, tough on the mat but not the top program now for more than a decade.

Just understand we are talking "the best of the best" here, not every day or even top tier programs that occasionally hit the heights. The rare three to judge all others by. After all, for decades now it had been OSU, Iowa and Penn State with multiple titles with a few others finally breaking through but not able to sustain it.

[Gus]

12 hours ago, Hammerlock3 said:

is it top 5 though? tradition doesn't mean anything at this point. And do they have great fan support?

I love john smith but your characterization is accurate.

I would say yes, they are top 5 now still. PSU, Iowa, Ohio State, OK State seem to be the clear top 4 programs when you consider tradition, support from the university/alumni, success, etc. The fifth spot is more up for debate

[Dogbone]

A head coach whose team was on an upward trajectory and just finished 12th at NCAAs left that job to be an assistant coach (likely next HC) and people are wondering if it is a desirable place to coach?!?

[wrestle87]

14 hours ago, Hammerlock3 said:

but he runs a dry program

Does he really?(rhetorical question, that’s pretty cool)  Is that dry year round or just dry for the season? 

And not being from Oklahoma, I’m going to ask the obnoxious question about why  that would be difficult in Stillwater.

[ionel]

14 hours ago, Hammerlock3 said:

 They don't have a lot of people at their dual meets, stillwater isnt a sell to me, just feels like the mojo is gone. 

 

I take it you haven't been there recently when 14k in attendance.  There was a bit of "mojo" when Picc pinned Lee in front of 14,000 screaming fans.  

[wrestle87]

15 minutes ago, Dogbone said:

A head coach whose team was on an upward trajectory and just finished 12th at NCAAs left that job to be an assistant coach (likely next HC) and people are wondering if it is a desirable place to coach?!?

I’m not saying this to be argumentative, I do think OSU is in a precarious situation to an under-appreciated extent.

While historically a top 3 program in everyone’s mind who remembers wrestling before cael at penn state, I can’t recall the last time okie state had a real murderers row.  In an era where the benefits of gentler(ie less insane) coaching and smarter programming have  become abundantly clear, injury rates and outcomes for athletes in that program have taken a real nose dive in the past ten years.

It seems like, increasingly each year, good kids go to that program and leave tired, exhausted, and injured.  It is something you here in the voices of every graduate of that room, even the major bigtime studs like cormier, mark munoz, jordan oliver, esposito, pendleton, watch their faces when they tell John Smith stories.  They all just sound shell shocked.  Fear is no longer a legacy that maintains or builds programs.

I think it says boatloads that munoz the younger is at oregon state with pendleton, and doing very well there.

For whatever reason they showed Espo the door, even though he (must have) been carrying tons of water for that program for more than a decade.  I can’t imagine anyone staying in the room very long if not for Espo.

I guess they decided if you want the HC job you need an olympic medal.

It’s nice to gloss over the situational specifics, but this isn’t tom ryan going to Ohio State after the graceful retirement of a long-time father figure to the program.  This feels a lot more like a guy not wanting to take a hint, and the administration making moves to give him the old shoulder nudge.

Is it a desirable place? Maybe, but he has been so monolithic there for so long, nobody knows what okie state is without him, and from the looks of it he’s turned so ornery that it’s not a lock that institutional knowledge, know-how, or relationships will be left in states of good repair upon his exit.  Gable, while also a thoroughly nuts personality, maintained relationships and understood “big” wrestling rather well.  The Iowa wrestling team is, from an admin level, very well managed, and Gable clearly has guided his successors and instilled the importance of communication and stewardship in them.  I do not expect the same from the wizard of the low single.  

IMO, they wouldn’t have brought in a coach who knows how to start from scratch if the situation were better.

[scribers]

Collegiate programs are all about the money now. Lock haven could be insurmountable with cash 

[Nittany]

"While historically a top 3 program in everyone’s mind who remembers wrestling before cael at penn state, I can’t recall the last time okie state had a real murderers row. "

2005: 125 (8th), 141 (4th), 149 (1st), 165 (1st), 174 (1st), 197 (1st), HWT (1st).

Sadly, that was nearly 20 years ago.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Nittany

[ThreePointTakedown]

If you were talented and all-in on wrestling and the life style that entails, OSU could be for you. Training hard, cutting weight, school is less of a priority then winning, going to Stillwater to be coached by John, Zach, and Eric was an obvious choice. They are hardly the only game in town in that regard and they are not producing like that had in the past. Oklahoma has fallen on hard times. More Big Ten schools with Big Ten funding. PSU is obviously a prime destination for athletes with ambition and a need for a different sort of lifestyle than a Cowboy. Stanford and the Ivies are picking up some clout. Balancing academics, future earnings, and post grad competition has fueled an arms race that OSU cannot or has yet to offer. Seems like they are still offering an 'old school' wrestling experience when the market is and the kids are trending elsewhere. Bringing in Coleman was a step in the right direction. But they might have a few tough years until John's influence is replaced with a new vision for the future. One more in line with where the sport is heading. 

[Antitroll2828]

1 hour ago, wrestle87 said:

Does he really?(rhetorical question, that’s pretty cool)  Is that dry year round or just dry for the season? 

And not being from Oklahoma, I’m going to ask the obnoxious question about why  that would be difficult in Stillwater.

Yea I believe he runs a very strict dry program ( heard that’s why Alvarez and Noto  ended up leaving) but it was a process to get them like that , better then Frank Beasley when he took over GMU ..He had undercovers in the bars catching kids drink in the off-season so he could cut them and free up spots for his guys and pulled some questionable moves to get around that time 

[alex1fly]

As a Pokes fan it's interesting to hear y'alls perspectives. We're all curious what the future holds, too. John has certainly admitted that he has only recently accepted changes in the sport. And he's certainly too stubborn to leave the program worse than he found it. A lot rides on this season but with this being year #1 or #2 of John being okay with NIL/RTC/portal/etc it might take a few more years to see the future of OSU Wrestling.

[Gus]

1 hour ago, wrestle87 said:

I’m not saying this to be argumentative, I do think OSU is in a precarious situation to an under-appreciated extent.

While historically a top 3 program in everyone’s mind who remembers wrestling before cael at penn state, I can’t recall the last time okie state had a real murderers row.  In an era where the benefits of gentler(ie less insane) coaching and smarter programming have  become abundantly clear, injury rates and outcomes for athletes in that program have taken a real nose dive in the past ten years.

It seems like, increasingly each year, good kids go to that program and leave tired, exhausted, and injured.  It is something you here in the voices of every graduate of that room, even the major bigtime studs like cormier, mark munoz, jordan oliver, esposito, pendleton, watch their faces when they tell John Smith stories.  They all just sound shell shocked.  Fear is no longer a legacy that maintains or builds programs.

I think it says boatloads that munoz the younger is at oregon state with pendleton, and doing very well there.

For whatever reason they showed Espo the door, even though he (must have) been carrying tons of water for that program for more than a decade.  I can’t imagine anyone staying in the room very long if not for Espo.

I guess they decided if you want the HC job you need an olympic medal.

It’s nice to gloss over the situational specifics, but this isn’t tom ryan going to Ohio State after the graceful retirement of a long-time father figure to the program.  This feels a lot more like a guy not wanting to take a hint, and the administration making moves to give him the old shoulder nudge.

Is it a desirable place? Maybe, but he has been so monolithic there for so long, nobody knows what okie state is without him, and from the looks of it he’s turned so ornery that it’s not a lock that institutional knowledge, know-how, or relationships will be left in states of good repair upon his exit.  Gable, while also a thoroughly nuts personality, maintained relationships and understood “big” wrestling rather well.  The Iowa wrestling team is, from an admin level, very well managed, and Gable clearly has guided his successors and instilled the importance of communication and stewardship in them.  I do not expect the same from the wizard of the low single.  

IMO, they wouldn’t have brought in a coach who knows how to start from scratch if the situation were better.

Cormier doesn't seem afraid to send his big time HS studs to Stillwater. See Cody Merrill. Do we know that Espo left the program on bad terms? The olympic training center is a sweet gig for coaches. Good pay, no knocking on doors and recruiting, good location, etc. With a young family, the olympic training center coaching gig would be much better for work life balance. 

[Gus]

10 minutes ago, alex1fly said:

As a Pokes fan it's interesting to hear y'alls perspectives. We're all curious what the future holds, too. John has certainly admitted that he has only recently accepted changes in the sport. And he's certainly too stubborn to leave the program worse than he found it. A lot rides on this season but with this being year #1 or #2 of John being okay with NIL/RTC/portal/etc it might take a few more years to see the future of OSU Wrestling.

I think the development of Olejnik this year shows that the Okie State crew knows how to coach. Some of Olejnik's low level leg attacks have him looking like a young John Smith. A good Okie State is better for wrestling as a whole in my opinion. 

[ionel]

16 minutes ago, Gus said:

I think the development of Olejnik this year shows that the Okie State crew knows how to coach. Some of Olejnik's low level leg attacks have him looking like a young John Smith. A good Okie State is better for wrestling as a whole in my opinion. 

Also, his slide by shuck has the new look of K Brock, Gfeller, Fix to it.  

[Hammerlock3]

2 hours ago, ionel said:

I take it you haven't been there recently when 14k in attendance.  There was a bit of "mojo" when Picc pinned Lee in front of 14,000 screaming fans.  

yeah I looked it up and my impression was apparently just wrong. they had better attendance than tOSU

[Offthemat]

There have been quite a few wrestlers turned into good wrestlers and then turned into good coaches by John Smith.  And he’s been good for wrestling overall; what he did for Stanford was a jewel.  

[Hammerlock3]

7 minutes ago, Offthemat said:

There have been quite a few wrestlers turned into good wrestlers and then turned into good coaches by John Smith.  And he’s been good for wrestling overall; what he did for Stanford was a jewel.  

i love that interview when he's talking about that situation and goes, "how did no one get fired?"

[1032004]

20 hours ago, wrestle87 said:

I’m not saying this to be argumentative, I do think OSU is in a precarious situation to an under-appreciated extent.

While historically a top 3 program in everyone’s mind who remembers wrestling before cael at penn state, I can’t recall the last time okie state had a real murderers row.  

How would you define a “real murderers row”?