Progressives vs liberals

[Bigbrog]

1 minute ago, uncle bernard said:

Charitable giving has never been higher and yet we perform worse than our peer nations who have higher taxes and universal programs. Maybe they're doing it the right way after all?

Maybe trusting millions of isolated individuals to distribute resources rationally with no planning or cooperation isn't the most efficient way to do things?

Plus, most charities are scams and tax write-offs for rich people.

Again...is the government way of distributing money to those in need the only way to do it, because that is today's society, and I should go live in the woods because I disagree?  But then turn around and say it isn't working...so which is it??  

[ThreePointTakedown]

59 minutes ago, Bigbrog said:

I agree with this...there are people who feel it is the governments job to determine how people's money is spent to help those in need, and there are people, like me, who want to be able to choose how and where my money is spent in helping out those in need.  To me the "why" people get mad over these types of differences is because one is mandated and the other is based on choice.  I am all for helping others less fortunate, but it should be my choice who and when and how much, not the government, and definitely not some of you on these forums.

When does that breakdown? We're seeing it now. People with jobs(they've chosen) to help people are asking for religious exemptions because they disagree with... something. Granted, government programs can be better. There are plenty of studies and literature out there about how best/better to address hunger and poverty. But those cost money. Other countries have found enough will to enact these programs or things like them with great success. We however have a.... I'll just call it 'YOUR POST' problem. You're so tribal that you would rather keep your resources to help your situation then to offer up a portion to ensure the betterment of society. Where you would reap a benefit as well. 

It requires the ability to not judge people with differing lifestyles and situations as your own. That we are all human and deserve certain things. When the least among us is raised, we all benefit(I'm sure a bearded fella was quoted as saying something like that once). 

[ThreePointTakedown]

2 minutes ago, Bigbrog said:

Again...is the government way of distributing money to those in need the only way to do it, because that is today's society, and I should go live in the woods because I disagree?  But then turn around and say it isn't working...so which is it??  

Seems like your being purposefully dishonest.  

[Paul158]

10 minutes ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

That's a pretty broad brush you're painting with. 

This seems like the process of addressing the climate crisis. Sure a dem can volunteer at a soup kitchen, but would also try to pressure the government to streamline programs and change tax code so that people can get enough assistance so the soup kitchen isn't necessary. So, I can see how you might think that one thing is better and you might be right about the numbers. But different actions can effect different outcomes.  

If you're pressured/guilted/obligated into volunteering/donating/tithing by the church does that really count? 

Last question. Maybe you were just brought up to do the right thing because it's the right   thing to do. Not so long ago ( 30 years ago) I was part of an organization (around 5000 people) that was all volunteer.  We never once brought up politics.  Everyone worked hard and worked toward a common goal. Did we agree on everything. No. But we understood the bigger picture. Its seems today for the most part that ship has sailed.

[Bigbrog]

14 minutes ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

When does that breakdown? We're seeing it now. People with jobs(they've chosen) to help people are asking for religious exemptions because they disagree with... something. Granted, government programs can be better. There are plenty of studies and literature out there about how best/better to address hunger and poverty. But those cost money. Other countries have found enough will to enact these programs or things like them with great success. We however have a.... I'll just call it 'YOUR POST' problem. You're so tribal that you would rather keep your resources to help your situation then to offer up a portion to ensure the betterment of society. Where you would reap a benefit as well. 

It requires the ability to not judge people with differing lifestyles and situations as your own. That we are all human and deserve certain things. When the least among us is raised, we all benefit(I'm sure a bearded fella was quoted as saying something like that once). 

More than happy to have a conversation about this when you can realize you are not all knowing, and when you stop inferring things about me and what my believes are so I fit a narrative you are making up in your head.   If you disagree with what I specifically said in a post, without extrapolating that to mean something other than what it says, then please do so, otherwise don't waste your time responding.

[uncle bernard]

1 hour ago, Bigbrog said:

Again...is the government way of distributing money to those in need the only way to do it, because that is today's society, and I should go live in the woods because I disagree?  But then turn around and say it isn't working...so which is it??  

There is no limit on charitable giving or distribution. Giving is at an all time high and Americans are more charitable than their peer nations. Yet...it's not working. 

Your contention is that if the government stopped helping altogether, charity would suddenly start accomplishing what it isn't accomplishing right now?

[Husker_Du]

2 hours ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

Everyone freaked out. It was not a great situation. 45 put it into motion and 46 followed through with it. Didn't stop anyone from voicing their opinions. We shouldn't've been there in the first place let alone Iraq. 

Big giant screw up. Agreed. 

we SHOULD have pulled out. everyone agreed with that. it's the 'how'.

to be honest, Biden get the blame b/c he forced an expedited withdraw, but the military leaders deserve most of it, imo.

how many people have to green light so many asinine checkpoints for a disaster like that to happen?

[uncle bernard]

1 minute ago, Husker_Du said:

we SHOULD have pulled out. everyone agreed with that. it's the 'how'.

to be honest, Biden get the blame b/c he forced an expedited withdraw, but the military leaders deserve most of it, imo.

how many people have to green light so many asinine checkpoints for a disaster like that to happen?

There was no scenario where the Afghan army wasn't going to collapse.

[Ban Basketball]

"We're going to end the endless wars.  Endless wars."-Inmate #PO135809.

[Offthemat]

“Afghanistan is the right war.”   Barry Soetoro

[Plasmodium]

1 minute ago, Offthemat said:

“Afghanistan is the right war.”   Barry Soetoro

Afghanistan was a just war.

[Le duke]

1 hour ago, uncle bernard said:

There was no scenario where the Afghan army wasn't going to collapse.

 

"Afghan".

[Offthemat]

18 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Afghanistan was a just war.

Maybe early on, but by the time Barry got to it, ben laden was in Iran. 

[Plasmodium]

I don't want to get into conspiracy theories. We lost a lot on 9/11 and there was very real and credible threat for more.  Eventually it morphed.

[Offthemat]

Conspiracy?  Theories?

[uncle bernard]

59 minutes ago, Offthemat said:

Maybe early on, but by the time Barry got to it, ben laden was in Iran. 

Bin Laden is Sunni and Iran is Shia. They hate each other. 

[Offthemat]

9 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

Bin Laden is Sunni and Iran is Shia. They hate each other. 

What is Hamas?  
They eventually booted him out.  He was only in Pakistan a few years before he was found.  

[PortaJohn]

18 minutes ago, Offthemat said:

What is Hamas?  
They eventually booted him out.  He was only in Pakistan a few years before he was found.  

Hamas is Sunni, Hezbollah is Shia

[Plasmodium]

32 minutes ago, Offthemat said:

Conspiracy?  Theories?

In addition to the Birther Movement?

[Offthemat]

3 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

Hamas is Sunni, Hezbollah is Shia

And what is the enemy of my enemy.  The ‘net can take you to released FBI files that document connections between Iran and Hamas and al qaida.  It’s not secret that muslims band together against the little satan and the great satan. 

[PortaJohn]

Just now, Offthemat said:

And what is the enemy of my enemy.  The ‘net can take you to released FBI files that document connections between Iran and Hamas and al qaida.  It’s not secret that muslims band together against the little satan and the great satan. 

Apologies, haven't read through the prior post.  I answered your post assuming you were generally asking who on paper Hamas aligned with religiously.  I'm guessing you knew the answer and were setting up to make a point?

[Le duke]

4 minutes ago, Offthemat said:

And what is the enemy of my enemy.  The ‘net can take you to released FBI files that document connections between Iran and Hamas and al qaida.  It’s not secret that muslims band together against the little satan and the great satan. 

 

And they are just as likely to fight each other as they are US forces. Maybe even more likely.

[Offthemat]

1 minute ago, PortaJohn said:

Apologies, haven't read through the prior post.  I answered your post assuming you were generally asking who on paper Hamas aligned with religiously.  I'm guessing you knew the answer and were setting up to make a point?

I was addressing the claims that it was a moment of magnificence when biden withdrew from Afghanistan and some points about why we were so invested. 

[Ban Basketball]

2 hours ago, Offthemat said:

“Afghanistan is the right war.”   Barry Soetoro

Don't b.s. me that you didn't support the Afghan and Iraq war, as nearly 100% (yes, that was the number) of the thirty percenters back both wars.  It wasn't until Inmate #PO1135809 told all of you what to think and you suddenly acted like you didn't support those wars.  

Take it from ME:  when almost 90% of our entire country (yes, the actual number) supported those two wars there was one person who still spoke out against them.

You're reading the writing of that person.  PLEASE don't get deluded with that.  I spent WAY too many years on wrestling forums, which led to my cancelling, and elsewhere arguing with thirty percenters over those useless wars.

[PortaJohn]

3 minutes ago, Offthemat said:

I was addressing the claims that it was a moment of magnificence when biden withdrew from Afghanistan and some points about why we were so invested. 

Gotcha, thanks!  Well here's the kicker.  At this moment there is no right or wrong answer on whether pulling out of Afghanistan was the right thing to do.  History will eventually tell that story.  After the fall of the USSR I'm sure there were many people in the US intelligence community that thought that the region we helped win their resistance would be the last place an Arab Sunni from Saudi Arabia would build a network of terrorist to attack the US and was protected by former Mujahedeen.