Israel Attacked

[uncle bernard]

10 hours ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

Native Americans lived in what is now the US for thousands of years, too.

Many examples of this. And also, many examples of land changing hands multiple times in decades time.

What has happened in recently in Gaza/Palestine isn't new to the world - it's a repeat of what's happened many times in history in many locations.

The idea that what is happening there is unique is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

That was a weak post.

Are you really so morally bankrupt that you believe "this has happened before. therefore, it's fine." You can apply that to any crime against humanity.

[Offthemat]

“CAMBRIDGE, MA — A local university student expressed her own tremendous virtue by proudly announcing she would never have gone along with the rise of the Nazi party in Germany as she walked across campus to attend a "Kill the Jews" rally taking place on the Quad.

"Oh yeah, I would have nipped all that Hitler stuff in the bud," said Harvard junior Dianna Stephens. "I'm telling you, if I was in Germany back then, I would have never participated in the horrific things the Nazis were doing. Now, which way to the rally where we're cheering for the entire nation of Israel to be pushed into the sea?" 

Stephens was joined by a number of her fellow students who all agreed that none of them would have allowed the evil Nazi ideology to spread in the years prior to World War II. "What the Nazis did was really awful," said sophomore Allison Davis. "Singling out one ethnic group, blaming them for all the ills of the world, rounding them up, and systematically slaughtering them? How hideous! I could never be a part of that. That's why today I'm standing with those who want to wipe the Jews off the face of the earth if it's the last thing they ever do."

At publishing time, the group of students had promised their generation would never allow the world to be plunged into something like WWII ever again. "It's up to our generation to keep humanity from repeating the same mistakes of the past," Stephens said. "Now where were we? Oh yeah--from the river to the sea! From the river to the sea!"”
 

https://babylonbee.com/news/i-wouldnt-have-gone-along-with-the-nazis-in-1939-says-college-student-at-kill-the-jews-rally

[Plasmodium]

1 hour ago, Offthemat said:

“CAMBRIDGE, MA — A local university student expressed her own tremendous virtue by proudly announcing she would never have gone along with the rise of the Nazi party in Germany as she walked across campus to attend a "Kill the Jews" rally taking place on the Quad.

"Oh yeah, I would have nipped all that Hitler stuff in the bud," said Harvard junior Dianna Stephens. "I'm telling you, if I was in Germany back then, I would have never participated in the horrific things the Nazis were doing. Now, which way to the rally where we're cheering for the entire nation of Israel to be pushed into the sea?" 

Stephens was joined by a number of her fellow students who all agreed that none of them would have allowed the evil Nazi ideology to spread in the years prior to World War II. "What the Nazis did was really awful," said sophomore Allison Davis. "Singling out one ethnic group, blaming them for all the ills of the world, rounding them up, and systematically slaughtering them? How hideous! I could never be a part of that. That's why today I'm standing with those who want to wipe the Jews off the face of the earth if it's the last thing they ever do."

At publishing time, the group of students had promised their generation would never allow the world to be plunged into something like WWII ever again. "It's up to our generation to keep humanity from repeating the same mistakes of the past," Stephens said. "Now where were we? Oh yeah--from the river to the sea! From the river to the sea!"”
 

https://babylonbee.com/news/i-wouldnt-have-gone-along-with-the-nazis-in-1939-says-college-student-at-kill-the-jews-rally

Interesting research you have going.  Keep sharing.

[jross]

43 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Interesting research you have going.  Keep sharing.

The point of sharing is to support Offthemat with how stupid our youth are.  This post is not meant to derail the conversation off track from Israel attacked. 

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by jross
fix link

[uncle bernard]

50 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Interesting research you have going.  Keep sharing.

Do you think he knows it's a satirical article? (and a bad one at that)

[Plasmodium]

39 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

Do you think he knows it's a satirical article? (and a bad one at that)

No

[ionel]

Is this Uncle Bernie's doing?

https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-name-conspicuously-absent-from-maps-on-chinese-internet-report-2023-10

[uncle bernard]

Israel bombed Gaza's largest refugee camp. Even longtime Israel defenders in the media are aghast at this crime.

 

 

Eager to see how the war crimes brigade on here handwaves this one away.

[Offthemat]

https://intermatwrestle.com/forums/topic/2728-israel-attacked/?do=findComment&comment=82344

If ‘civilians’ are convinced their presence on the battlefield is ineffective at manipulating the battle, will their propensity to linger diminish?

[uncle bernard]

2 hours ago, Offthemat said:

https://intermatwrestle.com/forums/topic/2728-israel-attacked/?do=findComment&comment=82344

If ‘civilians’ are convinced their presence on the battlefield is ineffective at manipulating the battle, will their propensity to linger diminish?

it’s a refugee camp you barbarian. you will not see heaven

[GreatWhiteNorth]

12 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

Nothing is unique about ethnic cleansing and stealing land.  The difference here is we point the finger at the past but justify it when it unfolds right before our eyes.

It won't bring peace.  This has already happened many times in the Holy Land.  The crusades, for example.  The Palestinians will always claim their share, because it is indeed theirs.

We "justify it?" Do we? I don't think so. Think again. 

• Ethnic cleansing is the exact, and openly stated, goal of Hamas. It has unfolded right before our eyes.
• Israel has refused to justify it - and instead committed to putting a stop to ethnic cleansing.
• Israel has committed to Hamas elimination. Not any type of ethnic cleansing.

If you missed the point I made about land changing hands over the course of generations all over the world on a routine basis (which is an observation, not a justification) - and instead stubbornly insist that it doesn't apply to this one piece of land because "you said so"...

Then, our discussion has nowhere further to go. We just disagree.

Edited November 1, 2023 by GreatWhiteNorth

[GreatWhiteNorth]

11 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

Are you really so morally bankrupt that you believe "this has happened before. therefore, it's fine." You can apply that to any crime against humanity.

It isn't fine. I didn't say that. Learn how to utilize logic and stop posting like a bozo.

[GreatWhiteNorth]

1 hour ago, uncle bernard said:

it’s a refugee camp you barbarian. you will not see heaven

The civilians should have moved south to avoid the military action as has been clear for some time.

It is terrible that they were caught in the active war zone. It truly is. But that is EXACTLY why they were instructed to clear out.

War is an awful, awful thing. Choices must be made - and choices lead to consequences.

If only the Israeli young people had a choice to make at their music festival. Or the many other civilian Israelis who were butchered without warning on 10/7.

Edited November 1, 2023 by GreatWhiteNorth

[uncle bernard]

12 hours ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

The civilians should have moved south to avoid the military action as has been clear for some time.

It is terrible that they were caught in the active war zone. It truly is. But that is EXACTLY why they were instructed to clear out.

War is an awful, awful thing. Choices must be made - and choices lead to consequences.

If only the Israeli young people had a choice to make at their music festival. Or the many other civilian Israelis who were butchered without warning on 10/7.

Israel has still been bombing in the south as well. They bombed the evacuation route. They bombed the rafah crossing. There is nowhere they can go where they can be safe. 

Honest question: Is there anything Israel could do to lose your support?

[Plasmodium]

1 hour ago, uncle bernard said:

Israel has still been bombing in the south as well. They bombed the evacuation route. They bombed the rafah crossing. There is nowhere they can go where they can be safe. 

Honest question: Is there anything Israel could do to lose your support?

I think this is the general consensus.  https://news.yahoo.com/lindsey-graham-says-no-limit-134328868.html

 

Personally,  I support Israel's inalienable right to defend itself.  But that support is not absolute.  They are approaching a point where the victim of a horrifying act becomes the prepetrator of something much worse.

With no proportionality for this act, the discussion is going to have to open to include the history of the reasons terrorists exist and obstacles to possible peaceful solutions there.  Israel risks losing widespread good will and empathy.  I am already questioning why we need to supply military support.   The military outcome is not in question.  At all. It is the politics that are in question.

[Offthemat]

15 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

it’s a refugee camp you barbarian. you will not see heaven

It’s not a refugee camp by any definition outside of Gaza.  800k of the 1.1million former residents have gone south as they were advised to about two weeks ago.  Those who stayed are mostly Hamas and their supporters.  Blue jeans and t-shirts are the Hamas uniform.  The deep hole in the ground is evidence of a tunnel and the accuracy of the IDFs intelligence. 
 

I must say I was impressed at seeing the pincer move being used by the IDF.  It’s what I was looking for.  They are taking some early losses but inflicting many more on the terrorists. 

[Offthemat]

6 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

I think this is the general consensus.  https://news.yahoo.com/lindsey-graham-says-no-limit-134328868.html

 

Personally,  I support Israel's inalienable right to defend itself.  But that support is not absolute.  They are approaching a point where the victim of a horrifying act becomes the prepetrator of something much worse.

With no proportionality for this act, the discussion is going to have to open to include the history of the reasons terrorists exist and obstacles to possible peaceful solutions there.  Israel risks losing widespread good will and empathy.  I am already questioning why we need to supply military support.   The military outcome is not in question.  At all. It is the politics that are in question.

This is not a proportional reaction, it’s a war.  It’ll be over when either one side surrenders, or some negotiated settlement is reached.  

[Le duke]

4 minutes ago, Offthemat said:

It’s not a refugee camp by any definition outside of Gaza.  800k of the 1.1million former residents have gone south as they were advised to about two weeks ago.  Those who stayed are mostly Hamas and their supporters.  Blue jeans and t-shirts are the Hamas uniform.  The deep hole in the ground is evidence of a tunnel and the accuracy of the IDFs intelligence. 
 

I must say I was impressed at seeing the pincer move being used by the IDF.  It’s what I was looking for.  They are taking some early losses but inflicting many more on the terrorists. 

 

I have to correct you here: the deep hole is evidence of a munition specifically designed to penetrate the ground before detonation, but not necessarily a tunnel. 

 

The munition could have been quite a ways off of its intended target and still had the same effect on the ground; i.e., leaving a crater after detonation. 

[Offthemat]

16 minutes ago, Le duke said:

 

I have to correct you here: the deep hole is evidence of a munition specifically designed to penetrate the ground before detonation, but not necessarily a tunnel. 

 

The munition could have been quite a ways off of its intended target and still had the same effect on the ground; i.e., leaving a crater after detonation. 

No way for us to tell, but I’ve seen underground munitions in solid ground that didn’t look like that.  I’d almost bet dollars to donut holes that’s a tunnel. 

[Plasmodium]

24 minutes ago, Offthemat said:

This is not a proportional reaction, it’s a war.  It’ll be over when either one side surrenders, or some negotiated settlement is reached.  

It is a war between one of the best trained and equipped armies in the world and a ragtag group that doesn't even have the support of the government of the people they claim to represent.   Who is Israel going negotiate an end to this with?  Hamas? They only represent themselves.  The PA? Hardly, they aren't even involved.  It is the Palestinians that have been, are now and will continue to be the ones suffering.

[mspart]

I saw the pictures of the refugee  camp and have to wonder why a refugee camp was in the middle of the city.   There are broken buildings all around that camp.  When I think of a refugee camp, I think of an area outside of cities along borders etc.   I'm not saying that it wasn't truly a refugee camp, but it is an odd place to put one. 

mspart

[mspart]

3 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

It is a war between one of the best trained and equipped armies in the world and a ragtag group that doesn't even have the support of the government of the people they claim to represent.   Who is Israel going negotiate an end to this with?  Hamas? They only represent themselves.  The PA? Hardly, they aren't even involved.  It is the Palestinians that have been, are now and will continue to be the ones suffering.

I think Israel has been very clear that this is an operation to cleanse Gaza of Hamas, all of Hamas.   It is Hamas that will negotiate terms.   Unless they are eradicated.   That's the way I understand it.   You are correct, the PA is not involved.

To be quite clear, the Palestinians in Gaza have suffered because Hamas has taken all aid and given it to themselves first in the form of its munitions, its investments, and its tunnels.   There is precious little left for the Gazans after that. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/27/world/middleeast/palestine-gazans-hamas-food.html

As Gazans Scrounge for Food and Water, Hamas Sits on a Rich Trove of Supplies

Hamas has spent years stockpiling desperately needed fuel, food and medicine, as well as ammo and weapons, in the miles of tunnels it has carved out under Gaza.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/13/israel-gaza-hamas-war-west-bank/

Israel orders 1 million Gazans to evacuate;

...  “We need to separate them,” Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant told reporters. “Those that want to save their life, please go south.”

Hamas dismissed the warnings as “psychological war” and told citizens to stay.

mspart

[Offthemat]

20 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

It is a war between one of the best trained and equipped armies in the world and a ragtag group that doesn't even have the support of the government of the people they claim to represent.   Who is Israel going negotiate an end to this with?  Hamas? They only represent themselves.  The PA? Hardly, they aren't even involved.  It is the Palestinians that have been, are now and will continue to be the ones suffering.

They are at war with Hamas.  They can lay down their arms and surrender.  At this point, I don’t think they will be able to negotiate much else. 

[uncle bernard]

 

 

[GreatWhiteNorth]

12 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

Israel has still been bombing in the south as well. They bombed the evacuation route. They bombed the rafah crossing. There is nowhere they can go where they can be safe. 

Honest question: Is there anything Israel could do to lose your support?

Your "honest" question? That's cute. I won't be looking for honesty from you anytime soon.

Nobody is safe in war. That's why so many in the world try to avoid war - yet Hamas seeks to invite it.

Hamas made the country unsafe. There is no 100% safe place in war, but the south is many, many times more safe - it should be every civilian's destination.

War is so ugly and so awful.

Why don't the Palestinians rise up against Hamas and take their leadership back? Are they too weak?