Israel Attacked

[mspart]

6 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

Israel is doing all of those things too. The one-sidedness of Western outrage is part of the problem because as long as Israel is allowed to murder with impunity, Palestinians will return the favor. 

Israel decapitates, rapes, mows down youth?   I'm not a believer, please show documentation of this.  

mspart

[uncle bernard]

3 minutes ago, mspart said:

Israel decapitates, rapes, mows down youth?   I'm not a believer, please show documentation of this.  

mspart

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settler_violence

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/3/3/israeli-settler-attacks-against-palestinians-by-the-numbers

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-west-bank-settlers-attack-bengvir-netanyahu-f59bad22ce74ca2ea99ebc5ce54e727b

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/6/palestinian-killed-as-israeli-settlers-attack-west-bank-town-of-huwara

Day before the attack. These settler raids and murders have been happening with increased frequency the last year. This isn't hard to find if you took the time to look yourself.

https://www.cair.com/cair_in_the_news/israeli-guards-rape-palestinian-women/

https://www.dailysabah.com/world/mid-east/deceased-israeli-soldier-boasted-about-raping-palestinian-woman

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-691641 - The IDF has a long established history of rape and sexual assault against both Palestinians and Israelis

As to the final charge of "mowing down youth" - Israel killed 91 Palestinian children...yesterday alone.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/08/28/west-bank-spike-israeli-killings-palestinian-children - Here's a Human Rights Watch article detailing the high amount of Palestinian youth murdered by IDF soldiers - largely with impunity.

I know I'm wasting my time. You're going to handwave it away like it doesn't count or something.

[Plasmodium]

17 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

You're arguing with the UN on this? 

The bolded is a war crime by the way.

The Palestinians already outnumber the Jews. That's why Israel is moving to strip their political rights even further. If they enfranchised the people in occupied land, Israel would no longer by a Jewish majority state. 

While Westerners quibble about whether it's apartheid because of this and that reason, the Israeli government is pretty explicit that it's seeking to establish an apartheid system where non-Jews do not have the same rights.

I'm arguing that it wasn't very long ago when Jews were fighting for their very existence.  It was in the charter of the PLO to push the Jews into the sea and they were surrounded by overwhelming hostility.  To say nothing of desperation resulting from the Holocaust.

But times have changed.  Israel is in a far better position to control a peace process.  They need to build a viable peace plan and that means a real Palestinian state.  They will not succeed with oppression, apartheid or greed.

[uncle bernard]

Also, I'm pretty confident the "40 beheaded babies" story will prove to be untrue. The reporter at the source of that story is already backing down saying her only source was an anonymous IDF soldier who "believed" it happened, but didn't see it. The music festival massacre also will likely prove to be misleading. Civilians were likely killed in the crossfire between Hamas and IDF soldiers. IDF had tanks at the scene (on video). It wasn't the undefended group of peace festival attendees it was described as (wasn't a peace festival either, just a regular rave).

Doesn't change that hundreds of civilians were murdered. Doesn't make it less tragic. Doesn't absolve blame. But the painting of the narrative to make it look like one side is especially brutal is one reason we're here today. It's how more people end up dying. It's how Israel gets permission to murder thousands of civilians in response. And that in turn strengthens Hamas' position as the only path of resistance to Israel.

After all, we should know better. We've seen lies like this before have huge consequences.

https://www.democracynow.org/2018/12/5/how_false_testimony_and_a_massive

"NAYIRAH AL-SABAH: '.... While I was there, I saw the Iraqi soldiers come into the hospital with guns. They took the babies out of incubators, took the incubators and left the children to die on the cold floor. It was horrifying. I could not help but think of my nephew.'

PRESIDENT GEORGE H.W. BUSH: 'They had kids in incubators, and they were thrown out of the incubators, so that Kuwait could be systematically dismantled.'

Three months after Nayirah testified, President George H.W. Bush launched the invasion of Iraq. But it turned out Nayirah’s claims weren’t true. No human rights group or news outlet could confirm what she said. It also turned out Nayirah was not just any Kuwaiti teenager. She was the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to the United States, Saud Nasser al-Sabah. She had been coached by the public relations firm Hill & Knowlton, which was working for the Kuwaiti government."

Edited October 10, 2023 by uncle bernard

[mspart]

1 hour ago, uncle bernard said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settler_violence

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/3/3/israeli-settler-attacks-against-palestinians-by-the-numbers

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-west-bank-settlers-attack-bengvir-netanyahu-f59bad22ce74ca2ea99ebc5ce54e727b

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/6/palestinian-killed-as-israeli-settlers-attack-west-bank-town-of-huwara

Day before the attack. These settler raids and murders have been happening with increased frequency the last year. This isn't hard to find if you took the time to look yourself.

https://www.cair.com/cair_in_the_news/israeli-guards-rape-palestinian-women/

https://www.dailysabah.com/world/mid-east/deceased-israeli-soldier-boasted-about-raping-palestinian-woman

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-691641 - The IDF has a long established history of rape and sexual assault against both Palestinians and Israelis

As to the final charge of "mowing down youth" - Israel killed 91 Palestinian children...yesterday alone.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/08/28/west-bank-spike-israeli-killings-palestinian-children - Here's a Human Rights Watch article detailing the high amount of Palestinian youth murdered by IDF soldiers - largely with impunity.

I know I'm wasting my time. You're going to handwave it away like it doesn't count or something.

You may be correct.  I may handwave it.   The top section is recounting a series of incidents regarding Israeli settler clashes.   Not all, but some of those actors were arrested.   Has that happened to anyone in Gaza?  No.

The second set is regarding soldiers, the first by CAIR is an allegation by a Palestinian woman and nothing more.   The second is about a soldier boasting of raping a Palestinian woman and is now dead.   He got what was coming.  The third is story about some rapes by IDF folks.   It does not say they were against Palestinian women, only that there were 32 cases of rapes.   I take this meaning this was all inside the IDF.   So this does not help your case.  

The third link is supposed to be equivalent to 260 mowed down in one go by Gazans a few days ago.   This link says, "Israeli forces had killed at least 34 Palestinian children in the West Bank as of August 22."   First this is not the same thing.   Second you have to ask what was going on that the soldiers would fire on kids.   Third, if for no reason, this is not a good thing and should be condemned and is inexcusable and those soldiers incarcerated.   The circumstances are not discussed which may mean this would not sound as innocent on the part of the youth as you want it to.    How does this compare to mowing down 260 kids in a matter of minutes who were at a dance party?   It doesn't.   

You would be surprised that I am not convinced by these links.   The dailysabah link is the only one that has some semblence of germaneness to the question here and that guy is now dead.   You are taking individual actions over the course of a year or more and trying to equate them to a point in time where 260 youth were  mowed down, where women were systematically raped and some decapitated, and others killed, where babies were killed with some decapitated by a concerted effort on the part of Hamas and this is somehow excusable. 

I have no issue with Israel retaliating after what happened last weekend. 

mspart

[Plasmodium]

Israel has never committed atrocities and war crimes?  C'mon.

[WrestlingRasta]

Right on cue..

[mspart]

1 hour ago, Plasmodium said:

Israel has never committed atrocities and war crimes?  C'mon.

I'm fairly confident in saying not on the scale that has been witnessed this weekend.  If the Gazans hoped to bring hell and war to their enclave, then they went about it the right way. 

I'm sure the IDF has done things that were not right.   I don't condone those actions.   But we have rarely seen atrocities of this magnitude in recent modern times, only ISIS, Al-Qaeda, Taliban, and perhaps Russia come to mind.   War is not pretty and the middle east and Palestinians have been waging war with Israel for over 70 years.   Yet Israel is the only one that has to temper any response.   Palestinian action - Well, it has been bubbling over for a long time.   Israel reaction - Better not go too hard Bibi.   

mspart

[Offthemat]

Defense of this barbarism bears a depravity of its own. 

[uncle bernard]

2 hours ago, mspart said:

You may be correct.  I may handwave it.   The top section is recounting a series of incidents regarding Israeli settler clashes.   Not all, but some of those actors were arrested.   Has that happened to anyone in Gaza?  No.

The second set is regarding soldiers, the first by CAIR is an allegation by a Palestinian woman and nothing more.   The second is about a soldier boasting of raping a Palestinian woman and is now dead.   He got what was coming.  The third is story about some rapes by IDF folks.   It does not say they were against Palestinian women, only that there were 32 cases of rapes.   I take this meaning this was all inside the IDF.   So this does not help your case.  

The third link is supposed to be equivalent to 260 mowed down in one go by Gazans a few days ago.   This link says, "Israeli forces had killed at least 34 Palestinian children in the West Bank as of August 22."   First this is not the same thing.   Second you have to ask what was going on that the soldiers would fire on kids.   Third, if for no reason, this is not a good thing and should be condemned and is inexcusable and those soldiers incarcerated.   The circumstances are not discussed which may mean this would not sound as innocent on the part of the youth as you want it to.    How does this compare to mowing down 260 kids in a matter of minutes who were at a dance party?   It doesn't.   

You would be surprised that I am not convinced by these links.   The dailysabah link is the only one that has some semblence of germaneness to the question here and that guy is now dead.   You are taking individual actions over the course of a year or more and trying to equate them to a point in time where 260 youth were  mowed down, where women were systematically raped and some decapitated, and others killed, where babies were killed with some decapitated by a concerted effort on the part of Hamas and this is somehow excusable. 

I have no issue with Israel retaliating after what happened last weekend. 

mspart

Predictable.

Let me simplify things for you. 

Israel has killed 20x as many Palestinian civilians since 2008. That ratio will increase after this weekend (by the way they just bombed the bridge Netanyahu told Palestinians they could leave over, killing many more innocent people).

Is a 20x civilian murder rate enough for you to say that they aren't totally innocent?

 

[uncle bernard]

1 hour ago, mspart said:

I'm fairly confident in saying not on the scale that has been witnessed this weekend.  If the Gazans hoped to bring hell and war to their enclave, then they went about it the right way. 

I'm sure the IDF has done things that were not right.   I don't condone those actions.   But we have rarely seen atrocities of this magnitude in recent modern times, only ISIS, Al-Qaeda, Taliban, and perhaps Russia come to mind.   War is not pretty and the middle east and Palestinians have been waging war with Israel for over 70 years.   Yet Israel is the only one that has to temper any response.   Palestinian action - Well, it has been bubbling over for a long time.   Israel reaction - Better not go too hard Bibi.   

mspart

I don't know how to get this across to you, but they have already surpassed the complete scale of the Hamas attack with their retaliation in the last 48 hours. By the end of this, there will be significantly more dead innocent Palestinians. Collective punishment is a war crime. 

You're right that you don't see them. That's because they're only covered here when there are Western victims. That doesn't mean they don't happen. By Israel's own numbers, they kill 20x as many civilians. Your understanding of morality seems to think that because those are spread out over time instead of concentrated in short burst, they're somehow morally righteous.

 

[GreatWhiteNorth]

19 hours ago, jross said:

but do you remember when…

My point was clear:

Those that seek to specifically kill innocent people are fundamentally different from those that try not to.

I did use a metaphor - I get it - maybe that was too complicated for you to understand.

I'm not in favor of any killing of innocent people. Before or after this horrific event. (Which was precisely my point.)

(Oh, and rabid dogs need to be put down. No joy in it. None at all.)

Edited October 11, 2023 by GreatWhiteNorth

[Gus]

On 10/9/2023 at 1:10 AM, billyhoyle said:

You need to have a conversation with Mel Gibson. Bet you could really help his view on the world with this logic. 

Lol. I am not familiar with Mel’s worldview on this topic. 

[GreatWhiteNorth]

3 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

Predictable.

Let me simplify things for you. 

Israel has killed 20x as many Palestinian civilians since 2008. That ratio will increase after this weekend (by the way they just bombed the bridge Netanyahu told Palestinians they could leave over, killing many more innocent people).

Is a 20x civilian murder rate enough for you to say that they aren't totally innocent?

 

As the old saying goes... Payback is a bitch.

When one group decides to suddenly kill hundreds upon hundreds of innocent people without warning - there is no playbook. Just chaos.

Any sense of right/wrong goes out the window. No remorse for that group is appropriate.

[Ban Basketball]

So many curious things going on. 

-Why do the 30 percenters express so much "outrage" against the Palestinians, yet none toward what Russia is doing to Ukraine?

-Why do the 30 percenters think that middle eastern terrorism needs constant monitoring and infiltrating,  but our very own homegrown version of it,  which kills nth numbers more people on our soil should not be monitored and infiltrated?

-Similarly, why are middle eastern acts of terrorism not seen as simple acts of trespassing and done with love in their heart,  as they see homegrown terror as doing?

Deep thoughts we've been pondering daily.

[jross]

This is why I wrote in Ron Paul's name for president... angering my in-laws, who called it a wasted vote.

Defund both sides

Israel started Hamas. 
 

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by jross
added second video

[Bigbrog]

Man...some of you make my head and heart hurt based on your take of things....let me ask this simple question, who would you want in control over there...Israel, or Humas??

[Ban Basketball]

1 hour ago, Bigbrog said:

Man...some of you make my head and heart hurt based on your take of things....let me ask this simple question, who would you want in control over there...Israel, or Humas??

Two bad choices,  to be honest.  Israel and K.K. Nuttinbutayahoo is a serial UN and war crimes violator,  about to do it again in days. 

[Ban Basketball]

Self-correction:  K.K. Nuttinbutayahoo is already committing war crimes.  

More barbaric ones will follow. 

[Bigbrog]

1 minute ago, Ban Basketball said:

Self-correction:  K.K. Nuttinbutayahoo is already committing war crimes.  

More barbaric ones will follow. 

Right here is the problem...so technically this may be true, but you are focusing on Israel and not what Humas is and always have been about as NOT war crimes??  SMH

War is always terrible and both sides end up being at fault in one way or another, but to defend Humas for what they stand for and what they do everyday, and put all the blame on Israel is absolutely despicable.

[Ban Basketball]

1 hour ago, Bigbrog said:

Right here is the problem...so technically this may be true, but you are focusing on Israel and not what Humas is and always have been about as NOT war crimes??  SMH

War is always terrible and both sides end up being at fault in one way or another, but to defend Humas for what they stand for and what they do everyday, and put all the blame on Israel is absolutely despicable.

Other than nowhere,  where did I defend Hammas, ma'am?

I just pernted out that Israel, led by authoritarian,  K.K. Nuttinbutayahoo is a serial UN violator and war crimes violater, and doing it once again. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Ban Basketball

[jross]

13 hours ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

(Oh, and rabid dogs need to be put down.)

Your persona is the tap-dancing elephant in a tuxedo trying to prove he's a ballet dancer with a Ph.D. in ethics, whose steps contradict themselves.  You make up hasty generalizations and strawmen while serving rudeness with a side of moral high ground.



You criticized me for communicating that a society implementing behavioral euthanasia for unsafe dogs should support capital punishment for unsafe people.  You accused me of having a callous attitude towards taking lives, even likening me to a serial killer and suggesting I would enjoy harming people and dogs.  This ignores my statements that while taking a human life is morally wrong, I support capital punishment to prevent future harm to innocent individuals.

Your hypocrisy became evident when you compared people (Hamas) to dogs with rabies and stated that (unsafe) dogs (and people) need to be put down.

Don't be a dick.

Edited October 11, 2023 by jross

[uncle bernard]

21 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

Also, I'm pretty confident the "40 beheaded babies" story will prove to be untrue. The reporter at the source of that story is already backing down saying her only source was an anonymous IDF soldier who "believed" it happened, but didn't see it. The music festival massacre also will likely prove to be misleading. Civilians were likely killed in the crossfire between Hamas and IDF soldiers. IDF had tanks at the scene (on video). It wasn't the undefended group of peace festival attendees it was described as (wasn't a peace festival either, just a regular rave).

Doesn't change that hundreds of civilians were murdered. Doesn't make it less tragic. Doesn't absolve blame. But the painting of the narrative to make it look like one side is especially brutal is one reason we're here today. It's how more people end up dying. It's how Israel gets permission to murder thousands of civilians in response. And that in turn strengthens Hamas' position as the only path of resistance to Israel.

After all, we should know better. We've seen lies like this before have huge consequences.

https://www.democracynow.org/2018/12/5/how_false_testimony_and_a_massive

"NAYIRAH AL-SABAH: '.... While I was there, I saw the Iraqi soldiers come into the hospital with guns. They took the babies out of incubators, took the incubators and left the children to die on the cold floor. It was horrifying. I could not help but think of my nephew.'

PRESIDENT GEORGE H.W. BUSH: 'They had kids in incubators, and they were thrown out of the incubators, so that Kuwait could be systematically dismantled.'

Three months after Nayirah testified, President George H.W. Bush launched the invasion of Iraq. But it turned out Nayirah’s claims weren’t true. No human rights group or news outlet could confirm what she said. It also turned out Nayirah was not just any Kuwaiti teenager. She was the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to the United States, Saud Nasser al-Sabah. She had been coached by the public relations firm Hill & Knowlton, which was working for the Kuwaiti government."

https://news.sky.com/story/its-important-to-separate-the-facts-from-speculation-what-we-actually-know-about-the-viral-report-of-beheaded-babies-in-israel-12982329

As I predicted, the story of the 40 beheaded babies is falling apart. The IDF has seen no evidence that it happened.  It won't stop Western media talking about it though.

[Ban Basketball]

7 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

https://news.sky.com/story/its-important-to-separate-the-facts-from-speculation-what-we-actually-know-about-the-viral-report-of-beheaded-babies-in-israel-12982329

As I predicted, the story of the 40 beheaded babies is falling apart. The IDF has seen no evidence that it happened.  It won't stop Western media talking about it though.

Yeah,  but it's plausible.  Therefore,  it's true.

[mspart]

17 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

I don't know how to get this across to you, but they have already surpassed the complete scale of the Hamas attack with their retaliation in the last 48 hours. By the end of this, there will be significantly more dead innocent Palestinians. Collective punishment is a war crime. 

You're right that you don't see them. That's because they're only covered here when there are Western victims. That doesn't mean they don't happen. By Israel's own numbers, they kill 20x as many civilians. Your understanding of morality seems to think that because those are spread out over time instead of concentrated in short burst, they're somehow morally righteous.

 

You lost the battle here with the fact that that you are justifying Hamas who are a bunch of barbarians that did not take the fight to the government and soldiers, but to mostly unarmed civilians in a surprise attack, burning alive, raping women, killing 260 youth at a dance event, decapitating women and babies.   COWARDLY BEHAVIOR!  There is no excuse for this and your arguments and justifications are getting real old and tiresome.   Even President Biden has said, "Hamas offers nothing but terror and bloodshed with no regard to who pays the price,” Biden said. “The loss of innocent life is heartbreaking. Like every nation in the world, Israel has the right to respond, indeed the duty to respond, to these vicious attacks.”

Head of ADL is condemning everyone not condemning these attacks.   You are left alone crying, but but but.....    There is no justification for this.   They are getting what they deserve.   Gazans are not innocent in this as theY heartily support Hamas.   Hell is coming for the Gaza Strip in a way they have not experienced before.   Did they think that would not be the result?  What were they thinking?  They were  not thinking immediate future that's for sure. 

What have Hamas been doing all this time?   Oh, they have been taking all the money and doing nothing but buy munitions and dig tunnels.   Have they put together a water supply so they don't have to rely on Israel?  Have they put together a power system so they don't have to rely on Israel?   No, they haven't.   All they want to do is kill Israelis.  Read their charter.   In 1988, Hamas published its charter, calling for the destruction of Israel and the establishment of an Islamic society in historic Palestine.  And that was apparent this weekend when they cowardly went after the most vulnerable.   I suppose you justify ISIS and Al-Qaeda in Iraq, and Al-Qaeda, they did similar.   As the Japanese admiral said of the attack on Honolulu, he feared they had just awakened a sleeping giant.   Well, Israel has been awakened and I think they will accept nothing but total surrender this time out, and if they push for that, they should be supported by everyone.  

mspart