How do you feel about Flo?

[fishbane]

1 hour ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Have we heard that before? I have not, but I am not an always listener.

https://www.flowrestling.org/video/5748204-frl-181-martin-floreani-on-the-osu-vs-psu-failure

[fishbane]

Timeline of Flo streaming issues

February 2017 - OSU-PSU dual

https://www.cowboysrideforfree.com/2017/2/20/14671314/flowrestling-offers-apology-refund-for-fans-after-site-crashes-during-meet

"Fans of the two teams who couldn’t make it to Gallagher-Iba Arena to watch had the option to view the match live on FloWrestling.com, who grabbed exclusive broadcasting rights.

Unfortunately, the site wasn’t up to the task.

FloWrestling’s site crashed at the beginning of the meet, leaving those who had paid the $20 subscription fee to watch out of luck."

Flo's response -https://www.flowrestling.org/video/5748204-frl-181-martin-floreani-on-the-osu-vs-psu-failure

“We brought a committee together all of our top engineers across Flo sports and we’re going to be looking to  to really teardown find the weakness within our platform and expose those weaknesses on our own time and in a testing environments so that something like this doesn’t happen.”

CP: "How confident are you that we're not going to run into this kind of issue down the road?"

Martin: "I'm very confident..."  "We got Tech Falled."

January 2019 - Flo signed deal with DC United to distribute their home matches to the local market.

March 2019 - Issues arise with the quality of Flo's Stream in the first DC United game of the season.

May 2019 - Issues with the quality of Flo's DC United stream have not been sorted.  The stream cuts out at critical time of a match with New England Revolution as Martin/Flo is courting MLS for league wide rights after the current deal expires in 2022.

https://theathletic.com/1000851/2019/05/29/flo-sports-broadcasts-have-d-c-united-fans-seeing-red/ 

"D.C. United’s encounter with the New England Revolution last weekend was a slow burner, a game that only picked up its pace in the dying moments. After United captain Wayne Rooney converted a 90th-minute penalty kick, he sprinted into the goal to retrieve the ball, eager to get play underway and find a potential game-winner. Many United fans likely crept to the edge of their seats in anticipation, eager to see that happen.

What they ended up seeing for the bulk of the seven minutes of stoppage time was instead a red screen, the “technical difficulties” card of FloSports, the club’s broadcast partner. It was the latest in a frustrating series of events for United fans, many of whom pay as much as $8.99 per month to watch their club’s home games. "

https://awfulannouncing.com/streaming/flosports-is-talking-to-rest-of-mls-about-obtaining-local-tv-rights.html

"DC United and FC Cincinnati fans weren’t thrilled about FloSports in the first place. It’s not so much about the company itself, it’s that in an era where people are paying for multiple streaming services, they now have to pay for one more just to watch their team and are probably only going to pay to watch their team. Some probably won’t bother.

It wouldn’t be so bad if DC United and FC Cincinnati chose someone like ESPN+ because ESPN+ is not only less expensive ($5 per month compared to $20 per month) but offers way more soccer options than FloSports (out of market local MLS games, USL, US Open Cup, EFL, FA Cup, EFL Cup, Serie A, etc.) And since ESPN+ has plenty of other programming and mainstream sports available, it’s at least a platform many non-MLS fans subscribe to, putting the league in front of new fans. That will not happen if MLS moves to FloSports."

Oct 2019 - DC United terminates $12 million 4 year rights deal that started in March 2019 after complaints from fans of technical issues and cost.  DC United fans were paying significantly less than wrestling fans are charged and had access to all the same stuff as wrestling fans.  DC United likely had to pay an exit fee to terminate the agreement and streamed their remaining matches for free missing out on rights money for those games. It is also likely that they were not able to find anther rights parter willing to pay $9 million for the three years they had remaining.  It was likely a disastrous deal for United and Flo.

https://www.sportspromedia.com/news/dc-united-flosports-streaming-deal-ended-mls-tv-rights

"The move brings to an end what proved to be a problematic deal for DC United. Fans of the franchise were initially unhappy at having to pay between US$5.99 and US$8.99 per month for FloSports, which was compounded when the streaming service suffered technical difficulties. DC United’s draw against New York City FC in March, for example, was marred by interruptions.

June 2020 - Flo's other MLS team terminates their rights deal for similar reasons as DC United midway through the second year of the deal.  Flo's product was not up capable of meeting the demands of even the worst team in MLS.

https://www.sportspromedia.com/news/fc-cincinnati-flosports-streaming-tv-rights-local-cancel/

"FC Cincinnati were forced to defend the FloSports deal last year after fans aired frustrations that the platform was technically unstable and prohibitively expensive. Annual subscriptions for the 2019 season were priced at US$150, with the first 2,000 to sign up receiving a discounted rate of US$99 for the year."

"Fans who have purchased FC Cincinnati subscriptions on FloSports for 2020 will be given refunds."

June 2023 - Final X

CP "Unacceptable streaming quality for Final X."  "Steps are going to be taken to make sure it doesn't happen again."  and again and again and again and again. 

[wrestle87]

It astonishes me how quickly flo got so impressively corporate.  

I worked at big banks where people seemed less scared of falling afoul of the company line than they seem be at flo.

This many years on I think it should say a lot that anybody with any sense of independent thinking or a personality has been pushed out of fulltime work at Flo.  

Anybody interested in going out and seeing if we can bust up some of these contracts they have on tournaments?

[Yellow_Medal]

It astonishes me how quickly flo got so impressively corporate.  
I worked at big banks where people seemed less scared of falling afoul of the company line than they seem be at flo.
This many years on I think it should say a lot that anybody with any sense of independent thinking or a personality has been pushed out of fulltime work at Flo.  
Anybody interested in going out and seeing if we can bust up some of these contracts they have on tournaments?

Sure, let’s hit the road Jack

[ionel]

On 6/12/2023 at 1:06 PM, fishbane said:

Timeline of Flo streaming issues

February 2017 - OSU-PSU dual ...

I am certain I remember streaming issues before 2017.

[LJB]

the reality is the amount of money we are talking about is embarrassingly small...

this sport will stab each other in the back for $12...

 

[LJB]

1 minute ago, ionel said:

I am certain I remember streaming issues before 2017.

try dial up pron in 1997...

you *I have used this word too much* kids...

[fishbane]

11 hours ago, LJB said:

the reality is the amount of money we are talking about is embarrassingly small...

this sport will stab each other in the back for $12...

 

Wrestlers are cheap, but Flo is an expensive streaming service.  It is objectively true.  What other streaming service is priced $30/mo?  The only sports that tolerate Flo are ones with fan bases that are too small to be served by real broadcasting/streaming options.

Do you think FC Cincinnati fans were happy when Flo got the rights to stream their games?  They were charging $30/mo or $150/year (some people got a discounted $99 yearly rate) to local fans of the worst on field team in MLS to watch 4-5 home games per month for 7 months.  A total of 34 games.  

Now that AppleTV has the streaming rights to all MLS teams one can purchase MLS season pass and with it the ability for watch every single game in the league for $99.99/year or $14.99/month.  More for less without Flo's technical difficulties.

Do you think Cycling fans in the US are excited that Flo has the rights to broadcast UCI events here?  It is cheaper to pay for both a VPN and GCN+ and watch from a country where GCN+ has the broadcast rights than it is to subscribe to Flo.

Do you think OSU wrestling fans are upset their matches are now on Big 12 Now/ESPN+ and not Flo?  Do you think a fan of any Big Ten team would prefer their team's matches were distributed on Flo vs BTN? 

Streaming services that are cheaper than FloSports - NBA League Pass, MLB TV, MLS Season Pass, ESPN+, GCN+, BTN+, Hulu (I hear they have live sports), Amazon Prime, Netflix, Peacock, Max, Disney+, HBO Max, Paramount+.  Flo only makes sense in terms of value if you are using it for more than 1 vertical and that is almost certainly the exception.  FC Cincinnati fans were likely to only use Flo to watch Flo's substandard broadcast of FC Cincinnati games and for that alone it is a very expensive option.

[mspart]

For the reasons above, I have not yet subscribed to flo.

msprt

[wrestlingshoe]

8 hours ago, fishbane said:

Wrestlers are cheap, but Flo is an expensive streaming service.  It is objectively true.  What other streaming service is priced $30/mo?  The only sports that tolerate Flo are ones with fan bases that are too small to be served by real broadcasting/streaming options.

Do you think FC Cincinnati fans were happy when Flo got the rights to stream their games?  They were charging $30/mo or $150/year (some people got a discounted $99 yearly rate) to local fans of the worst on field team in MLS to watch 4-5 home games per month for 7 months.  A total of 34 games.  

Now that AppleTV has the streaming rights to all MLS teams one can purchase MLS season pass and with it the ability for watch every single game in the league for $99.99/year or $14.99/month.  More for less without Flo's technical difficulties.

Do you think Cycling fans in the US are excited that Flo has the rights to broadcast UCI events here?  It is cheaper to pay for both a VPN and GCN+ and watch from a country where GCN+ has the broadcast rights than it is to subscribe to Flo.

Do you think OSU wrestling fans are upset their matches are now on Big 12 Now/ESPN+ and not Flo?  Do you think a fan of any Big Ten team would prefer their team's matches were distributed on Flo vs BTN? 

Streaming services that are cheaper than FloSports - NBA League Pass, MLB TV, MLS Season Pass, ESPN+, GCN+, BTN+, Hulu (I hear they have live sports), Amazon Prime, Netflix, Peacock, Max, Disney+, HBO Max, Paramount+.  Flo only makes sense in terms of value if you are using it for more than 1 vertical and that is almost certainly the exception.  FC Cincinnati fans were likely to only use Flo to watch Flo's substandard broadcast of FC Cincinnati games and for that alone it is a very expensive option.

I pay $12.50 a month for Flo. If you wanted to pay less to stream your favorite sport, you should have picked a different favorite sport. Wrestling does not have that fan base to charge less. It's also the reason we have to put up with a subpar streaming service, commentators ext... I still remember when I had to buy a poor quality VHS tape months later or read USA Wrestling magazine a month later. So much whining from old men is hilarious. And if you think MLS on AppleTV+ is without issues, think again.  I have a paid subscription to AppleTV+ and still had to pay a good chunk of change to add MLS

[MPhillips]

24 minutes ago, wrestlingshoe said:

I still remember when I had to buy a poor quality VHS tape months later or read USA Wrestling magazine a month later. So much whining from old men is hilarious.

If you remember VHS and reading USA wrestling magazine a month later. You are an old man. So while the whining is hilarious, the old man thing applies.  

Folks bitch and whine about everything. FLO is not immune to that. I've seen more wrestling content on FLO than I have ever seen anywhere in my lifetime.  I believe we all get that.  

[Yellow_Medal]

If you remember VHS and reading USA wrestling magazine a month later. You are an old man. So while the whining is hilarious, the old man thing applies.  
Folks bitch and whine about everything. FLO is not immune to that. I've seen more wrestling content on FLO than I have ever seen anywhere in my lifetime.  I believe we all get that.  

Exactly. I’ve used this simile before, and I will use it again, W.I.N. Magazine showing up used to be like Christmas morning. Flo is far from perfect, but damn do I love that they are even here. That goes for the BTN, ESPN, etc. coverage that I’ve been able to see too; I am very glad it is even available. To refute my position, people say things like, “you wouldn’t accept missing articles in W.I.N. would you? Why should we accept this then?” W.I.N. was far from an ideal publication at the time either, but it was worth it to me, just as Flo is for me now. That’s all this really boils down to. Is it worth enough to you, despite its many flaws, to pay the price? Many fall on the no side, many on the yes. Should we complain to get their attention? Absolutely. Should we pine for their destruction? I say no.

[DJT]

53 minutes ago, Yellow_Medal said:

Exactly. I’ve used this simile before, and I will use it again, W.I.N. Magazine showing up used to be like Christmas morning. Flo is far from perfect, but damn do I love that they are even here. That goes for the BTN, ESPN, etc. coverage that I’ve been able to see too; I am very glad it is even available. To refute my position, people say things like, “you wouldn’t accept missing articles in W.I.N. would you? Why should we accept this then?” W.I.N. was far from an ideal publication at the time either, but it was worth it to me, just as Flo is for me now. That’s all this really boils down to. Is it worth enough to you, despite its many flaws, to pay the price? Many fall on the no side, many on the yes. Should we complain to get their attention? Absolutely. Should we pine for their destruction? I say no.

The problem lies in FloSports’ “arrogance”, so to speak, that they do not need to improve because the customer doesn’t have a better choice. The wrestling community is its own worst enemy when it comes to being complacent with the status quo (mediocrity).
 

I don’t think customer complaints made to Flo make any difference. It needs to be more of a consumer advocacy campaign directed to USAW and UWW. An open letter/petition calling on USAW and UWW to demand excellence from Flo when broadcasting their events and hold Flo accountable when they do not uphold those standards. This is likely how they lost the MLS contracts.

Outside of that, it’d take a coordinated boycott, which would be a tough nut to crack. This isn’t like the ignorance of Bud Light calling its customer base cavemen fratboys and mocking women, since there is a plethora of other (better) beers out there… we don’t have the privilege of having many options for consuming wrestling content.

Edited June 15, 2023 by DJT

[wrestle87]

On 6/14/2023 at 10:55 AM, Yellow_Medal said:

Sure, let’s hit the road Jack

Aight, what tournaments used to be covered well but have since totally disappeared.

1) Russian Nationals

2) All Zeb Miller Productions

3) They did a great job at prep nationals and nj states a while back

Now that I think about it, I wish Flo would stick to their documentaries, bc those things are tremendous.

They should hand the broadcasting to a new team.  

Even though I dislike much of their product, their ability to tell a story artfully with unsung corners of the sport really is tremendous.

[Dark Energy]

Wrestling coverage post Flo >> coverage pre Flo

But yea, wish they could be better at the streaming.  Overall, really has gone well. But .. when the issues happen, it burn.

Can one of you complainers please start a rival firm, invest a lot to provide excellent streaming and content, to claim all the big $$$ that Flo is getting?  Come on, it isn’t that hard.  Just do it!

I happen to be too busy right now.

 

[1032004]

I am not a huge fan of Flo and have never had an annual subscription (have done a few months here and there), but while it is not as good of a value as regular streaming services such as Netflix or even ESPN+, $150 is probably still a good deal if you are watching stuff year-round. Rokfin now charges the same price (although they have a better monthly option), with I assume less actual wrestling available, plenty of conspiracy theories though I’m sure.  They also use some of the same billing tricks that Flo does.   And before Flo bought track I believe it would usually cost $30 for one event there.

[BobDole]

Wow a public apology!

 

 

[MPhillips]

9 minutes ago, BobDole said:

Wow a public apology!

First apology since the Iowa/OSU debacle.

[Dogbone]

11 hours ago, DJT said:

 

I don’t think customer complaints made to Flo make any difference. It needs to be more of a consumer advocacy campaign directed to USAW and UWW.

 

^^^^ This ^^^^

If USAW just takes the biggest check to broadcast Final X and doesn't care about the product or if anyone sees it, then that is USAW decision.

[fishbane]

14 hours ago, wrestlingshoe said:

I pay $12.50 a month for Flo. 

You either signed up for some other sport/vertical in a partner deal, you are grandfathered into some old plan, or you're doing the marketing ploy of dividing up the annual price of $150 by 12.  I am sure Flo chose the annual price because the scholastic/collegiate wrestling season is 5 months so the annual price is the same as the season price. In any event every streaming service I named cost less than $150/season or year whichever is appropriate.

15 hours ago, wrestlingshoe said:

So much whining from old men is hilarious. 

Old men whine, but no one likes paying too much for too little.  One Gable Steveson said of a streaming service that is less costly than Flo, "Sixty dollars is a lot bro.  Sixty dollars is crazy."

[Dogbone]

3 hours ago, Dark Energy said:

Wrestling coverage post Flo >> coverage pre Flo

But yea, wish they could be better at the streaming.  Overall, really has gone well. But .. when the issues happen, it burn.

Can one of you complainers please start a rival firm, invest a lot to provide excellent streaming and content, to claim all the big $$$ that Flo is getting?  Come on, it isn’t that hard.  Just do it!

I happen to be too busy right now.

 

Evolve or die.    Life was better after the invention of the horse and buggy than it was before.   People weren't loyal to it when a better product came along. 

Right now, Flo has the broadcast rights that keep their subscribers from cancelling despite poor service (by 2023 standards, not pre 2000 standards).

The market will eventually correct itself if that continues.  Whether its ESPN+, Twitch or some other service.

 

[DJT]

2 hours ago, BobDole said:

Wow a public apology!

 

 

Mark obviously saw my post. 

[DJT]

4 hours ago, Dark Energy said:

Can one of you complainers please start a rival firm, invest a lot to provide excellent streaming and content, to claim all the big $$$ that Flo is getting?  Come on, it isn’t that hard.  Just do it!

As customers, we have invested in the company. When one invests in something, it is reasonable for them to expect growth and returns. Say you bought a new car and the engine blew up after 1000 miles. You go back to the dealer, and he says, "Tough shit. If you think you can make a better car, maybe you should buy a factory, hire engineers and build your own car." Would you just say, "Yeah, you're right. I couldn't do it. I guess I'll just buy another car from you that'll blow up after 1000 miles."?

[skandar]

Flo sucks and this isn’t anything new. I was a subscriber back when they had technique wave and started doing live streams. Gave them a chance, but they failed too many times. Will never give them another penny.

[wrestlingshoe]

2 hours ago, DJT said:

As customers, we have invested in the company. When one invests in something, it is reasonable for them to expect growth and returns. Say you bought a new car and the engine blew up after 1000 miles. You go back to the dealer, and he says, "Tough shit. If you think you can make a better car, maybe you should buy a factory, hire engineers and build your own car." Would you just say, "Yeah, you're right. I couldn't do it. I guess I'll just buy another car from you that'll blow up after 1000 miles."?

But there are lots of other cars and dealers to choose from.