If brooks and Starroci win 4 titles

[Wrestlingfan2254]

If they win 4 titles would you guys consider them the two best psu wrestlers of all time?

[Wrestleknownothing]

Yes

[Broomstick]

Yes, they will be 1.a and 1.b, but I will put Bo at 1.c unless they both ramp up their pin percentages.

[82bordeaux]

Let's see if they can get three before we talk about four. A lot of people have drowned halfway across the river.

 

[Perry]

Star can be a 5 timer still

[RandolphTJones]

44 minutes ago, 82bordeaux said:

Let's see if they can get three before we talk about four. A lot of people have drowned halfway across the river.

 

Lets see if Starocci can get 4 before we begin talking about 5. 

[Packard]

1 hour ago, 82bordeaux said:

Let's see if they can get three before we talk about four. A lot of people have drowned halfway across the river.

 

There is a man in Star’s bracket that already knocked off a Penn State two timer going for his third. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

1 hour ago, Broomstick said:

Yes, they will be 1.a and 1.b, but I will put Bo at 1.c unless they both ramp up their pin percentages.

Zain was pretty good, too! 

DT is an all-time great but "only" won twice, so I think he's out of the conversation.

If they get four (five), Brooks and Starocci are both all-timers on anyone's list, but lack of bonus, greyshirting and Covid years have kinda muddied things up a bit.  I may even like Ed Ruth over the two for these reasons.

[peanut]

Both Starocci and Brooks are already two timers. Their legacies are secured.

Does anybody know what they plan to do after college? RBY too?

Bo gives them a map for pursuing MMA. But I hope they choose freestyle. I think all three of them are either world class, or not far from it. (I suspect RBY could medal right now.)

One difficulty with freestyle would be the possibility that Brooks and Starocci both compete at 86kg. 

Of course, Starocci looks good at his current weight. Hopefully cutting down or bulking up doesn’t affect him too much.

[PortaJohn]

23 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Zain was pretty good, too! 

DT is an all-time great but "only" won twice, so I think he's out of the conversation.

If they get four (five), Brooks and Starocci are both all-timers on anyone's list, but lack of bonus, greyshirting and Covid years have kinda muddied things up a bit.  I may even like Ed Ruth over the two for these reasons.

Bonus rate is the most overrated myth in determining which wrestler is better.  If it was the case Taylor would've smoked Dake and O'Toole would never have lost to Carr.  

The Covid year has actually made NCAA wrestling harder. Across the board, weight classes are deeper than at any other time that I can remember. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

6 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

Bonus rate is the most overrated myth in determining which wrestler is better.  If it was the case Taylor would've smoked Dake and O'Toole would never have lost to Carr.  

The Covid year has actually made NCAA wrestling harder. Across the board, weight classes are deeper than at any other time that I can remember. 

Bonus rate is no myth.

You are correct about the Covid year making weight classes deeper, however you now get five shots to win.  This skews "all-time" stats a bit.  

However, I think we (as a nation) have been getting deeper anyway.  For example: heavyweight has not been hugely affected by these extra covid year guys, but in recent years is probably the deepest weight we have ever had as far as international age group accomplishments.

[JVStateChamp]

The thought of having an opportunity to win 5 NCAA titles does not sit right with me. Other student athletes lost a year and only had 3 attempts at winning a national title while someone else received an extra year because of it. Its the NCAA who caused this problem and not the athletes but still does not sit right with me. As a whole NCAA wrestling is a fantastic product with many generational talents as high school wrestling seemingly continues to produce higher level wrestlers each year. Brooks and Starocci must be added to the all timers list but many like Ruth, Quentin Wright, etc. get overshadowed because of their lack of production post collegiate carrier which is unfair.

[Jamie_Taco]

1 minute ago, JVStateChamp said:

The thought of having an opportunity to win 5 NCAA titles does not sit right with me. Other student athletes lost a year and only had 3 attempts at winning a national title while someone else received an extra year because of it. Its the NCAA who caused this problem and not the athletes but still does not sit right with me. As a whole NCAA wrestling is a fantastic product with many generational talents as high school wrestling seemingly continues to produce higher level wrestlers each year. Brooks and Starocci must be added to the all timers list but many like Ruth, Quentin Wright, etc. get overshadowed because of their lack of production post collegiate carrier which is unfair.

I could be wrong, but I believe Carter has said before that he's not interested in going for five. That could change, but I honestly don't see what he gains in terms of GOAT talk going for the extra title. It's not like Cael or Dake wouldn't have won 5 if given the fifth year to compete.

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

1 minute ago, Jamie_Taco said:

I could be wrong, but I believe Carter has said before that he's not interested in going for five. That could change, but I honestly don't see what he gains in terms of GOAT talk going for the extra title. It's not like Cael or Dake wouldn't have won 5 if given the fifth year to compete.

Just the line in the history book. Which honestly is worth a lot less than a UFC contract. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

8 minutes ago, Jamie_Taco said:

I could be wrong, but I believe Carter has said before that he's not interested in going for five. That could change, but I honestly don't see what he gains in terms of GOAT talk going for the extra title. It's not like Cael or Dake wouldn't have won 5 if given the fifth year to compete.

And Mark Hall is only a one-timer! Crazy!

[Dogbone]

If Brooks and CStar win 4, then yes they are up there with the best. Will need to see how they finish (dominate) before determining who is the best against the other PSU legends.

I don't put much weight into a 5th title since no one else got the opportunity.  It's a good footnote but I don't think that alone should factor into legacy.

[bnwtwg]

Brooks would have a silver medal in 2020 if it weren't for an unstoppable combo of covid and someone skiing the slopes of Rome. He was likely going to come in as the 2 seed over Lujan and Bolen so would have still made it to the finals, but an upset was highly unlikely that year. His 4th will come with an elite asterisk.

[peanut]

31 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

Brooks would have a silver medal in 2020 if it weren't for an unstoppable combo of covid and someone skiing the slopes of Rome. He was likely going to come in as the 2 seed over Lujan and Bolen so would have still made it to the finals, but an upset was highly unlikely that year. His 4th will come with an elite asterisk.

Nobody knows how things would have shaken out in 2020. But he was fully capable of winking it all. At any rate 2020 was Brooks’s true freshman year—the year many others redshirted. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

3 minutes ago, peanut said:

Nobody knows how things would have shaken out in 2020. But he was fully capable of winking it all. At any rate 2020 was Brooks’s true freshman year—the year many others redshirted. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

3 minutes ago, peanut said:

Nobody knows how things would have shaken out in 2020. But he was fully capable of winking it all. At any rate 2020 was Brooks’s true freshman year—the year many others redshirted. 

Greyshirt.

[CHROMEBIRD]

Carter said he doesn't want to be a 5-timer. If he and Brooks win 4 they will certainly be among the best PSU wrestlers of all time but here's where we need to invoke some qulitative factors. I would put Nolf above them for the sheer creativity he brought to his matches and the way he put up points. Taylor's offensive pace and chain wrestling. Cassar for his expectations coming in and how he finished. Then you have Ruth and Nickal who make CarStar and Brooks look downright boring. Starocci much moreso than Brooks. 

[Gus]

I know I am in the minority but I believe that DT is the best Penn State wrestler ever. I would go

1- DT

2- Zain

3 - Nolf

4- Nickal

5- Brooks

6- Starrocci 

7- Ruth

8 - RBY

9- McCoy

10- Wright

[Wrestleknownothing]

2 hours ago, Jamie_Taco said:

I could be wrong, but I believe Carter has said before that he's not interested in going for five. That could change, but I honestly don't see what he gains in terms of GOAT talk going for the extra title. It's not like Cael or Dake wouldn't have won 5 if given the fifth year to compete.

You are not wrong. He has said that.

Something I sometimes think about is if Starocci wins four in a row, then comes back for a fifth bite at the apple, but does not win, how does that affect his legacy? Humans are not good at ignoring something they know.

[Antitroll2828]

1 hour ago, bnwtwg said:

Brooks would have a silver medal in 2020 if it weren't for an unstoppable combo of covid and someone skiing the slopes of Rome. He was likely going to come in as the 2 seed over Lujan and Bolen so would have still made it to the finals, but an upset was highly unlikely that year. His 4th will come with an elite asterisk.

He would have lost to a guy that never AAed or a guy that peaked by taking 8th at ncaas? I’m sorry that doesn’t track 

[Gus]

11 minutes ago, Antitroll2828 said:

He would have lost to a guy that never AAed or a guy that peaked by taking 8th at ncaas? I’m sorry that doesn’t track 

It's possible that Brooks would not have won NCAA's that year but I (along with a slew of others) would have been picking him.