Reasonable Discussion: Privilege

[jross]

6 minutes ago, braves121 said:

A Child has no choice if they have both parents that’s why he said it’s a privilege 

Agreed.  It is a privilege for the child.

[1032004]

8 minutes ago, jross said:

I'm open to learning.

How does observing a difference prove the cause is racism?  Denying white privilege and admitting black disadvantage is not equivalent.

I never said the cause was racism.  I said whites have more privilege than blacks on average.

[jross]

Agreed you did not use the word racism but you are talking about race (white/black).  Do people with white skin have more privs than people with black people because of their skin color as a primary cause?

[jross]

Going to post this very well-written article (linked previously).  He gets a lot of information correct and hits on white priv and black disadvantage. 

-------------------

To understand what they really mean, it is important to distinguish between two different—but related—concepts: privilege and advantage.

No two people are born exactly equivalent (not even identical twins), and no two people have identical life experiences. As a result, when approaching any issue or task, different people bring different levels of different traits to the task. Therefore, in virtually any given situation, one person’s set of traits will make it easier for them to accomplish the task, compared to the other person’s. The first person is therefore said to have an “advantage” over the second person, at least in reference to that specific task.

Some of these differences are genetic, functional, and widely applicable. For example one person can have an IQ of 120, which in regard to many tasks would give that person an advantage over someone with an IQ of 80. Another person might be born with a body that just happens to be perfect for swimming. Let’s call that the “fish difference”:

Still others may be born with a giant smile, or high Emotional Quotient (EQ), or manual dexterity, or no genes for male pattern baldness.

Other functional differences can be ‘earned’ by working to develop them (for good or bad). Studying hard in school leads to increased knowledge and thus an advantage in the types of jobs for which you qualify. Working out every day will give you an advantage in running a marathon. Apprenticing for 30 years under Jiro will give you an advantage as a sushi chef. That said, dropping acid for 30 years will fry your brain, smoking three packs a day for 30 years will shrivel your lungs, and playing hooky in high school may leave you unable to do basic math.

A third set of things that can functionally differentiate one person from another are things that are “given” to you (again, for good or bad). You might be given access to a million dollar trust fund, or you might be given piano lessons, or you might be given a large, loving, close-knit family providing you with constant emotional support. Conversely, you could be “given” an abusive parent, a debilitating car accident, or being born into the Great Depression. All of these “given” things affect your functionality, are exogenous to you, and are out of your control.

However…there are some advantages and disadvantages that are not functionally-based, but rather societally- or culturally-based. For example, there is a culturally-assigned value to beauty. If you happen to look like George Clooney or Priyanka Chopra, people will want to be around you, want to work with you, want to lend you money. But look like Steve Buscemi or Margaret Hamilton, and you will need to succeed despite your appearance.

What makes a “difference” a “privilege” is that it is unearned and advantageous. So Michael Phelps began with what we can now call “fish privilege”, because he did absolutely nothing to earn an 80″ wingspan, or short legs combined with a long torso. But then he single-mindedly worked ungodly hours for years and years practicing his swimming. I’m sure there are other people in the world with “fish privilege”, but even with that, Michael Phelps earned his Olympic Gold Medals by his hard work.

It is important to note that “unearned” does not in any way mean “bad” or even “un-deserved”. It is a simple, neutral, descriptive statement of fact that the recipient took no pro-active steps to acquire the trait.

So, putting this all together into graphic form, it looks something like this:

What makes discussions around this topic challenging are that (a) all six of these things are often combined or confused, and (b) differences and privileges are often cumulative and correlated. For example, being born in a developed country like the US (a “given” difference) means that childhood nutrition is unlikely to be a problem (making it a functional advantage). But good childhood nutrition has a longstanding effect on IQ. And a higher IQ (an unearned physical advantage, and hence a “privilege”) means that you will be able to do well in a selective college by working hard (an “earned” advantage).

However, at that selective college where you are working hard, you may find yourself in a peer group of other intelligent, hardworking people. And combined with the great education provided at a selective school, that means you start out with a social network of people who are likely to be in a position to help you later in life. So graduating from Yale at the top of your class is definitely an advantage, but because that advantage was partially earned and partially unearned, is it purely a question of privilege? It’s complicated.

In my case I have had it all. I was born with a set of differences that check virtually every box for the usual “functional advantages” (for example I’m healthy, intelligent, and have a very high energy level). But I also check the box on a host of other genetic “functional advantages” some of which you’ve probably never even heard of (for example I’m hyperthymic, which means I am happy and unstressed 24/7/365; I’m a short sleeper, which means I only need 4–5 hours of sleep a night, giving me hours a day of extra time; I metabolize caffeine, so I can down a double espresso and be asleep in 30 seconds; and I’m even resistant to mosquito bites, so I’ll be the last person in the room to be bitten).

Combined with that, there are a host of non-physical things that I have been given through no effort of my own: I grew up in the United States in the late 20th century, in the heart of New York City (“the world’s capital”) with two loving, intelligent, highly educated parents, in a close-knit nuclear and extended family, surrounded by books and intellectual experiences and world travel and a strong ethical upbringing from birth. My family was financially secure, so money was not an issue. When it came to education, I was first sent to, and later applied and was admitted to, the finest institutions in the world, from nursery through graduate school. Between family, mentors and other connections, augmented by my own activities, I have an inherited reputation and a vast social and professional network, and can likely reach out to literally anyone in the world through no more than two or three links.

These are all ‘functional’ privileges that I did nothing to earn, but have been insanely fortunate to have benefited from nonetheless. And if the story ended there, it would be a question of completely unbalanced luck and my own ridiculous good fortune. That’s the way the cookie crumbles, so to speak.

However, it doesn’t end there…and that’s the problem.

Because in addition to all those functional privileges, it turns out that many of the other genetic/physical traits with which I was born have been assigned significant cultural value by society…even though there is zero functional benefit to them. In particular, I am:

• Caucasian
• Male
• Tall
• Cisgendered
• Straight
• …with a great head of hair

There is literally no reason on earth why being a tall, White, heterosexual, male should give me any advantage for any reason over anyone else. But it does. Boy, does it ever.

And that’s where White Privilege comes in.

If in the United States you stand me next to anyone else who is female, with darker skin, shorter than me, balding, or stereotypically effeminate, and present us both in virtually any normal business or social context (other than one in which sexual interactions are expressed or implied), the results will forever put to rest any question of the existence of White Privilege (and gender privilege, height privilege and heteronormative privilege). Ten times out of ten, *I* will be the person who is assumed to be in charge, the person to whom the most deference is paid, and the person who is always given the benefit of the doubt. I will be the last person stopped by the police, the last person suspected of shoplifting, and the last person to be ignored in any context, by anyone, of any color. Is that fair? Hell no, of course it’s not fair. And that’s the essence of White Privilege.

Note that White Privilege does not mean that every white person is always advantaged over every black person in every situation. What it does mean, however, is that if you control for every other variable, in the United States being light-skinned gives one a measurable, proven advantage…as does being male, being tall, being straight, and being attractive (or at least having great hair :-).

In my case, I experience it 24/7 in every context, and have for two thirds of a century. It is as normal to me as breathing, and because I’ve never experienced things any other way, I have always accepted it as “just the way the world works”. But that doesn’t mean it is right, and that doesn’t mean that all of us shouldn’t do our best to change that red box up there and eliminate all “cultural privileges” that are purely discriminatory.

The biggest challenge for people like me in understanding the extent of the problem stems from the fact that “White Privilege” is actually a misnomer. Caucasians do not receive some magic “Privilege Card” that lets them skip to the head of the line.

Rather, we live in a country in which light-skinned people like me make up two-thirds of the population; a country in which for half of its history, dark-skinned people were a subservient, legally-subjugated, underclass. As such the problem is much more accurately described as one of “Black Disadvantage” (and the equivalent for other attributes).

That’s because as a member of the dominant social group, my skin color is a complete non-issue.

Someone pointing me out in a crowd is infinitely more likely to say “the heavyset redheaded guy” than they are “the white guy”. The characters in every children’s book that was read to me as a toddler were white, as were the GI Joe action figures…not to mention Batman and Superman and Ironman. Even the the Hobbits and Harry Potter were white, as were all of my elected officials and virtually all of my teachers. Just a few examples of this pervasive difference are listed in Maggie McFee's answer to a similar question.

It has taken me a very, very long time to come to the realization that the toll this takes on a person—let alone a family—is so deep and far reaching that it is difficult for people like me to comprehend. Just as a fish spends zero time thinking about water, so have I spent zero time across two-thirds of a century thinking about my own racial characteristics. But if you replace “fish” with “person”, I can tell you from experience that as a snorkeler and scuba diver, the minute I enter the fish’s domain I am spending 100% of my time thinking about water (keeping it out of my lungs, moving through it, and dealing with the effects of its pressure). That is what, I am told, it is like for a person of color navigating in a world not their own, and simply wishing for things that I take completely for granted.

Over the past 75 years there has definitely been progress made, but there is a long, long way to go before people are neither privileged nor challenged by irrelevant cultural advantages…high among which are White Privilege and Male Privilege.

[1032004]

Just now, jross said:

Agreed you did not use the word racism but you are talking about race (white/black).  Do people with white skin have more privs than people with black people because of their skin color as a primary cause?

No, at least not as a primary cause in the last ~40 years or so.   There’s certainly an argument to be made that racist policies prior to that contributed however.

[jross]

The problems as I see with the argument is not limited to...

• "Oppressed" Asian Americans outperforming White Americans in income, education, career, and so on.  How did they overcome the cultural value to "light skin.?
• In that crowd scenario... who is assumed to be the leader given a well-dress black woman and a rural dressed white man?
• How do the outcomes change when race is controlled for 'every other variable'... IQ, family background, behavior, and so on?

 

 

[Caveira]

32 minutes ago, braves121 said:

A Child has no choice if they have both parents that’s why he said it’s a privilege 

The parents have a choice.   There taking whatever away from their child as they’re selfish 

[1032004]

36 minutes ago, jross said:

The problems as I see with the argument is not limited to...

• "Oppressed" Asian Americans outperforming White Americans in income, education, career, and so on.  How did they overcome the cultural value to "light skin.?
• In that crowd scenario... who is assumed to be the leader given a well-dress black woman and a rural dressed white man?
• How do the outcomes change when race is controlled for 'every other variable'... IQ, family background, behavior, and so on?

 

 

I think I would actually agree with the article that calling it “black disadvantage” is probably more accurate than “white privilege.”  It’s essentially the same thing, but it does pretty much answer your first question.  To your second question, he said “all else equal”…other variables like the ones you list can change that.   No clue on the third.

Edited April 9 by 1032004

[mspart]

1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

Privilege is definitely real.   But it’s more socioeconomic than racial.  It’s just that between whites & blacks, whites are more likely to start off at a higher socioeconomic status.  Or even something as simple as having two parents at home is a privilege which is less common among blacks.

I’ve had similar discussions on a different forum, and conservatives continue to deny that privilege favoring whites is real.  Some will admit that “black disadvantage” is real however, which is really the same thing.

Why are blacks less likely to have a two parent home?   Would it have anything to do with Johnson's Great Society welfare state?  Where a woman could get more welfare single than married, called euphemistically as the marriage penalty?  And who's idea was this?  I believe before this time the chances of being black with a 2 parent family was much higher.  

The real question is why do blacks continue to vote for the people that continually keep them down rather than lifting them up?   Historically that has been the case.   D's have promised for decades to be saviors to the blacks and they are continually voted in and where are we?  Perhaps it is time for a different strategy.   

mspart

[braves121]

6 minutes ago, mspart said:

Why are blacks less likely to have a two parent home? 

There are plenty of documented factors such as the cia causing the crack epidemic in black communities 

[jross]

17 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

I think I would actually agree with the article that calling it “black disadvantage” is probably more accurate than “white privilege.”  It’s essentially the same thing, but it does pretty much answer your first question.  To your second question, he said “all else equal”…other variables like the ones you list can change that.   No clue on the third.

The problem is that he doesn't have an "all things else considered equal" scenario because there is so much more as pointed with my requestion.  The wage gap between white/black race is large.  But it disappears and even inverses in some cases depending on the culture, family, education, iq, behaviors... 

[Caveira]

18 minutes ago, braves121 said:

There are plenty of documented factors such as the cia causing the crack epidemic in black communities 

Yall keep referencing shit that may or may not have happened 50+ years ago 

[braves121]

4 minutes ago, Caveira said:

Yall keep referencing shit that may or may not have happened 50+ years ago 

Yea it’s almost like we can analyze history and recognize the consequences actions had on our society now you clown 

[Caveira]

Just now, braves121 said:

Yea it’s almost like we can analyze history and recognize the consequences actions had on our society now you clown 

When is it time to take some responsibility for their situation.   The Irish , Jews, Italians, polish , Japanese and others had hard times when they got here.  The Irish were slaves and lived through the Irish not need apply days.  
 

Minority politicians run the mayors office , the teachers union, and many other relevant roles in local / state government.   Los Angeles.   Nola.  Chicago. New York.  Baltimore.  Atlanta.  Phili.  Detroit. Washington DC.  Cleveland.  Charolette.   Newark.  Birmingham.  Kansas City.  St. Louis.  

[Rassling]

Some of you don’t know your history. Look up what was done to black families during slavery. America was in the business of separating families - it’s well known and documented. It was illegal for blacks to get married before the late 1800’s because they were considered property by their masters. 

[mspart]

But what happened after that Rassling?  

AI overview

The sharp decline in marriage among Black Americans began in the mid-1960s, with marriage rates dropping from roughly 61% in 1960 to 32% by 2008. This shift was driven by structural factors, including economic disparities, high male incarceration rates, and welfare policies that disincentivized marriage, rather than a total "giving up" on the institution.

The mid 60s was when the Great Society came about.   Which influenced the disincentivizing of marriage through the welfare policies which had a harmful impact on the boys who had no father and they turned to gangs and crime and were incarcerated for this.   The welfare state kept many of them down in economic distress so all hope left.   Great Society indeed. 

mspart

[Rassling]

yea this is a subject I just won’t debate. My  career before I retired  involved selling to the pharmaceutical industry and I spent alot of time calling on accounts in the 5 boroughs. Most reps were afraid to go into certain areas but I was not. This is where I learned first hand the vast disparities between different groups of people. I also got to know alot of different people - individuals I only really encountered as a young wrestler back then on LI. Most of us have a 400 year jump start while others are still trying to catch up. Fact: Those today those 70 years or older actually lived during segregation (Jim Crow says). Think about that. 

[mspart]

Segregation - That's what the civil rights marches of the 50s and 60s were about.   I was around for some of that.   

mspart

[Scouts Honor]

the only thing thats equal.

 

we all get 24 hours 

[mspart]

But some get more 24 hours than others. 

mspart

[ionel]

27 minutes ago, mspart said:

But some get more 24 hours than others. 

mspart

rv gets 110% more ... its privilege 

[Caveira]

If white privilege  is so powerful.   Why did Elizabeth Warren pretend to be Indian?

[ionel]

2 minutes ago, Caveira said:

If white privilege  is so powerful.   Why did Elizabeth Warren pretend to be Indian?

[1032004]

12 hours ago, Caveira said:

The Irish were slaves

No they weren’t, but I look forward to you copy pasting something from AI proving yourself wrong 

Edited April 10 by 1032004

[Scouts Honor]

"slavery is only bad when it happens in America"