fishbane

Before 2015-2016 2 points were awarded for a NF between 2 and 4 seconds and 3 points for a NF of 5 seconds or more. It was then changed to 2 points for a NF of 2-3 seconds and 4 points for 4 seconds or more. If we compare the period 2008-2015 (before the 4 point NF) with 2016-2021 (after the 4 point NF and before extra the free year) the # of TF increased from 12.8 to 27.2 per tournament. That is an increase of 112.5%. This increase came from turning MDs into NFs, but also from turning PFs into TFs. Pinfalls fell from an average of 71.6/tournament before the rule change to 67 after. This was a decrease of 6.4%. I suspect the effect of the rules scheduled for next season to be more significant than those back 2015-2016. The 4 point NF turned all 3 point NFs into 4 point NFs (an increase of 33%) and some 2 point NFs (over 4s and < 5s) into 4 points NFs an increase of 100%. The changes for next season not only increase some 2 point NFs into 3 points NFs but increase TDs, which are much more common, by 50%.

Probably just optimists hoping for an interesting team race. PSU has to be one of the biggest favorites in history next season. Eight wrestlers are preseason top 3. Has that ever happened before?

Jaydin Eierman didn't even score 2 points at NCAAs in 2022.

This could see Iowa start a lineup with 7 transfers. What is the most transfers a team has matted for a dual?

I added margin of victory in the team race to your table. With the expanded range there is no correlation between a tight team race and # of mnatches with bonus points. There are likely factors confounding that conclusion - the change of the 4 point NF, COVID, ect. If I only fit to the data 2008-2015 (before COVID and before the 4 point NF) there does appear to be a weak correlation (r=0.5-0.6) and it's notable that the three closest team races 2009, 2013, and 2014 produced the bonus point victories. A weak correlation makes sense because the team race only ever comes down to 2-3 maybe 4 teams, and whilst title contending teams have more wresters in the tournament that wrestle more matches its still only at most 40 out of 330 wrestlers with a material interest in the team race. I had initially proposed margin of victory as influencing things because 2023 was the only true outlier in the first table and last year had been the least competitive team race in decades. With the new expanded table it seems somewhat likely to me that two things had significant influence on the numbers. The first was the 4 point near fall rule. Since it's implementation in 2015-2016 bonus point victories were up in the next 5 year period. What's interesting is that while there was an increase in both TF and MD there was also a decrease in pinfalls. The top 5 years for pinfalls were all before the rule changed and there were 4-5 more pinfalls on average in the 8 years before change than the 5 immediately after the change. The other thing that influencing the numbers happened in the past two years. I think this could be the influence of the 6th year, but I'm open to other explanations. I'd expect the 3 point TD to 1) increase # of MD, 2) increase # of TF, 3) decrease # of PF, 4) increase total matches where bonus points are scored, 5) increase total bonus points scored.

Don't start following the international styles. I hear there is such a thing as a zero point loss...

Which year was the Iowa/OSU debacle? 2023 at Iowa BTN televised 2022 Bout at the Ballpark Flo streams - I only recall minor issues 2021 No Dual - COVID conference only schedule 2020 At Iowa BTN televised 2019 This was a massive dual. Both entered undefeated ranked 2 and 3 behind an undefeated PSU. It was the last dual of the season for both teams and was won by OSU. Picc pinned Spencer Lee. I recall minor issues watching this but not a total meltdown. Was this the year? 2018 At Iowa BTN televised. 2017 This was a pretty massive dual too. OSU was ranked #1 and Iowa #3. I don't recall watching this one. If I did I am sure there were issues with the stream freezing that caused me to reload and such. 2016 Grapple on the Gridiron. This was actually the first dual of the season and was actually wrestled Now 2015. It was at Iowa and on BTN.The total meltdown I remember was the 2017 Season Finale between OSU and PSU at Gallagher-Iba. 2015?

They should compromise and set TDs at 2.5 points. 3 is too much.

The 4 point NF rule was enacted for the 2015-2016 season and it looks like there is a clear increase in bonus points following that. 2016 there were more bonus point victories than in the previous 8 season and over the next 5 years bonus point wins were even higher. Every year 2016-2021 was higher than the highest year 2008-2015. The last two years seem to be real outliers. They had the fewest bonus point victories of the 15 in the table. Maybe this is a COVID effect. You have wrestlers sticking around for extra years starting in 2022, but the same number of qualifiers. The guys that stuck around are generally better than average wrestlers which probably pulled up the ability of the average wrestler at the national tournament. So the 33rd best wrestling in the field in 2022 and 2023 are likely better than the 33rd best wrestler in field in 2012. This could possibly make for more competitive matches than we had been used to seeing. What year did they change to at large selections and using in-season results to select qualifiers?

I can't think of a time when I saw a wrestler at NCAAs trying a catch and release strategy to try and chase down a TF/MD. I think this is almost exclusively a feature of dual meets where a bonus point is more significant in deciding the outcome and the team goal is at the forefront. I would suspect you'd see it more there. At NCAAs I would think there would be a bigger effect on MD numbers than FTs. A three point match is now almost on a knife edge between OT and a MD. 2023 was the least competitive team race in the range of years in your table. I'd expect a tight team race to increase the importance of bonus points and turn some of those MDs into FTs. I added a column to your table with margin of victory in the team race. There is a weak correlation

You either signed up for some other sport/vertical in a partner deal, you are grandfathered into some old plan, or you're doing the marketing ploy of dividing up the annual price of $150 by 12. I am sure Flo chose the annual price because the scholastic/collegiate wrestling season is 5 months so the annual price is the same as the season price. In any event every streaming service I named cost less than $150/season or year whichever is appropriate. Old men whine, but no one likes paying too much for too little. One Gable Steveson said of a streaming service that is less costly than Flo, "Sixty dollars is a lot bro. Sixty dollars is crazy."

Wrestlers are cheap, but Flo is an expensive streaming service. It is objectively true. What other streaming service is priced $30/mo? The only sports that tolerate Flo are ones with fan bases that are too small to be served by real broadcasting/streaming options. Do you think FC Cincinnati fans were happy when Flo got the rights to stream their games? They were charging $30/mo or $150/year (some people got a discounted $99 yearly rate) to local fans of the worst on field team in MLS to watch 4-5 home games per month for 7 months. A total of 34 games. Now that AppleTV has the streaming rights to all MLS teams one can purchase MLS season pass and with it the ability for watch every single game in the league for $99.99/year or $14.99/month. More for less without Flo's technical difficulties. Do you think Cycling fans in the US are excited that Flo has the rights to broadcast UCI events here? It is cheaper to pay for both a VPN and GCN+ and watch from a country where GCN+ has the broadcast rights than it is to subscribe to Flo. Do you think OSU wrestling fans are upset their matches are now on Big 12 Now/ESPN+ and not Flo? Do you think a fan of any Big Ten team would prefer their team's matches were distributed on Flo vs BTN? Streaming services that are cheaper than FloSports - NBA League Pass, MLB TV, MLS Season Pass, ESPN+, GCN+, BTN+, Hulu (I hear they have live sports), Amazon Prime, Netflix, Peacock, Max, Disney+, HBO Max, Paramount+. Flo only makes sense in terms of value if you are using it for more than 1 vertical and that is almost certainly the exception. FC Cincinnati fans were likely to only use Flo to watch Flo's substandard broadcast of FC Cincinnati games and for that alone it is a very expensive option.

I am sure it's been used successfully as a solution in corporate America before. Though it certainly wouldn't work in many situations and I wasn't suggesting it as a solution here, just finishing the analogy. In corporate America there can be a very wide spectrum of circumstances, much wider than seen in sport. In the case of player and coach there is almost always a large age difference and often times the player is very young at the start of a career and the coach old enough to be retired from competition. It is shocking how common player-coach relationships are in the women's tennis. Almost always a much older coach that has potentially been coaching the individual since their teenage years. Seems totally unprofessional.

Certainly a supervisor/subordinate in a relationship is untenable and ripe for conflicts. In some situations one individual could be transferred to report to someone else or the supervisor could be reassigned/demoted to resolve the issue without termination. Mayhaps he felt that this could be managed in a similar way? This individual could be reassigned to coach the men (presumable this individual does not have a sexual relationship with any of them), someone else assigned to coach the women, and that could resolve the issue.

I don't believe so. He wrestled as a true freshman in 2019 (took 3rd/1 year used), sophomore 2020 (no ncaas/2 years used), junior in 2021 (free year/won title/2 years used), junior 2022 (won NCAAs/3 years used), senior 2023 (did not wrestle/deferred eligibility/redshirt/3 years used). So since he never used a redshirt 2022-2023 could be his redshirt and he could use his last year in 2023-24.

But Rulon has attempted two comebacks since leaving his shoes on the mat! It wasn't over! He says he will be back next year 20 years hence. Any chance Gable wrestles for Minnesota next year? Would that be the first time a wrestler left their shoes on a mat in college and later returned to represent the school again? I think I remember Joe Rau leaving his shoes on the mat after losing at the last OTT. He won a world team spot at Final X this weekend. Frank Molinaro left his shoes on the mat at the last trials too. It was after his loss to Yianni in the championship bracket of the challenge tournament. He didn't show up for his consi match. I don't think there is only one appropriate time to leave your shoes on the mat. Very few individuals get to go out on a high note like Rulon did... the first time.

Yeah they had an exclusive deal with OSU at the time. I wonder why they don't any more...

Wouldn't an Ohio State-PSU dual have been carried by BTN? Are you referring to the PSU-OSU dual from 2017m

Was the OSU-Iowa debacle? The Feb. 2019 dual in Stillwater? The one where Picc pinned Spencer Lee?

On the front side he lost to Zahid. On the back side Downey. Maybe Starocci? With 4 wrestlers in one bracket perhaps the one they felt had the worst chance of winning the spot felt like they didn't put enough time into his preparation. Full brackets - https://www.trackwrestling.com/tw/opentournaments/VerifyPassword.jsp?tournamentId=600803132

Timeline of Flo streaming issues February 2017 - OSU-PSU dual https://www.cowboysrideforfree.com/2017/2/20/14671314/flowrestling-offers-apology-refund-for-fans-after-site-crashes-during-meet "Fans of the two teams who couldn’t make it to Gallagher-Iba Arena to watch had the option to view the match live on FloWrestling.com, who grabbed exclusive broadcasting rights. Unfortunately, the site wasn’t up to the task. FloWrestling’s site crashed at the beginning of the meet, leaving those who had paid the $20 subscription fee to watch out of luck." Flo's response -https://www.flowrestling.org/video/5748204-frl-181-martin-floreani-on-the-osu-vs-psu-failure “We brought a committee together all of our top engineers across Flo sports and we’re going to be looking to to really teardown find the weakness within our platform and expose those weaknesses on our own time and in a testing environments so that something like this doesn’t happen.” CP: "How confident are you that we're not going to run into this kind of issue down the road?" Martin: "I'm very confident..." "We got Tech Falled." January 2019 - Flo signed deal with DC United to distribute their home matches to the local market. March 2019 - Issues arise with the quality of Flo's Stream in the first DC United game of the season. May 2019 - Issues with the quality of Flo's DC United stream have not been sorted. The stream cuts out at critical time of a match with New England Revolution as Martin/Flo is courting MLS for league wide rights after the current deal expires in 2022. https://theathletic.com/1000851/2019/05/29/flo-sports-broadcasts-have-d-c-united-fans-seeing-red/ "D.C. United’s encounter with the New England Revolution last weekend was a slow burner, a game that only picked up its pace in the dying moments. After United captain Wayne Rooney converted a 90th-minute penalty kick, he sprinted into the goal to retrieve the ball, eager to get play underway and find a potential game-winner. Many United fans likely crept to the edge of their seats in anticipation, eager to see that happen. What they ended up seeing for the bulk of the seven minutes of stoppage time was instead a red screen, the “technical difficulties” card of FloSports, the club’s broadcast partner. It was the latest in a frustrating series of events for United fans, many of whom pay as much as $8.99 per month to watch their club’s home games. " https://awfulannouncing.com/streaming/flosports-is-talking-to-rest-of-mls-about-obtaining-local-tv-rights.html "DC United and FC Cincinnati fans weren’t thrilled about FloSports in the first place. It’s not so much about the company itself, it’s that in an era where people are paying for multiple streaming services, they now have to pay for one more just to watch their team and are probably only going to pay to watch their team. Some probably won’t bother. It wouldn’t be so bad if DC United and FC Cincinnati chose someone like ESPN+ because ESPN+ is not only less expensive ($5 per month compared to $20 per month) but offers way more soccer options than FloSports (out of market local MLS games, USL, US Open Cup, EFL, FA Cup, EFL Cup, Serie A, etc.) And since ESPN+ has plenty of other programming and mainstream sports available, it’s at least a platform many non-MLS fans subscribe to, putting the league in front of new fans. That will not happen if MLS moves to FloSports." Oct 2019 - DC United terminates $12 million 4 year rights deal that started in March 2019 after complaints from fans of technical issues and cost. DC United fans were paying significantly less than wrestling fans are charged and had access to all the same stuff as wrestling fans. DC United likely had to pay an exit fee to terminate the agreement and streamed their remaining matches for free missing out on rights money for those games. It is also likely that they were not able to find anther rights parter willing to pay $9 million for the three years they had remaining. It was likely a disastrous deal for United and Flo. https://www.sportspromedia.com/news/dc-united-flosports-streaming-deal-ended-mls-tv-rights "The move brings to an end what proved to be a problematic deal for DC United. Fans of the franchise were initially unhappy at having to pay between US$5.99 and US$8.99 per month for FloSports, which was compounded when the streaming service suffered technical difficulties. DC United’s draw against New York City FC in March, for example, was marred by interruptions. June 2020 - Flo's other MLS team terminates their rights deal for similar reasons as DC United midway through the second year of the deal. Flo's product was not up capable of meeting the demands of even the worst team in MLS. https://www.sportspromedia.com/news/fc-cincinnati-flosports-streaming-tv-rights-local-cancel/ "FC Cincinnati were forced to defend the FloSports deal last year after fans aired frustrations that the platform was technically unstable and prohibitively expensive. Annual subscriptions for the 2019 season were priced at US$150, with the first 2,000 to sign up receiving a discounted rate of US$99 for the year." "Fans who have purchased FC Cincinnati subscriptions on FloSports for 2020 will be given refunds." June 2023 - Final X CP "Unacceptable streaming quality for Final X." "Steps are going to be taken to make sure it doesn't happen again." and again and again and again and again.

You're right. Let's change Zain's birth certificate because he moved to PA.

No If Jimmy starts a thread asking the question "Is Chance Marstellar the best wrestler freestyler that grew up in Pennsylvania that we have this year?" "No Zain Retherford is better" would be a valid answer. To the question he asked Retherford is not a valid answer. What do you not understand?

No. We aren't pretending he was born in PA.

https://www.flowrestling.org/video/5748204-frl-181-martin-floreani-on-the-osu-vs-psu-failure