fishbane

One might infer that from the statement "had no clue that I could be PERMANENTLY banned"

Looking back at his tweets it says "I missed the meeting in 2022." It doesn't say whether he also missed it in 2021, or 2020, or 2019, or 2018.

I am not sure what distinction you are trying to make. If Rose was under duress it was of his own making. Was he under duress when he bet on the Reds 50+ times in 1987? He simply agreed to the inevitable That he agreed to be placed on the ineligible list itself is a novelty. No one else on the list agreed to be placed there. This agreement came about because Rose refused to participate in the hearings and then sued to stop them. The agreement was a settlement agreement to his lawsuit. And whilst he had been granted a temporary restraining order stopping the hearing he wasn't going to win this lawsuit. One final distinction is that Rose agreed to be placed on the ineligible list at the time there was no formal rule preventing someone on the list from being inducted into the hall of fame. So he didn't really agree to no hall of fame, but that ultimately was a consequence of his actions.

Isn't this an annual meeting? He is in his 6th year at Iowa. Did he skip it 5 straight years?

Maybe he is fishing for an NIL deal from an online casino? I think Pete Rose does endorsements for casinos.

Things changed recently with regards to betting. When the NCAA first outlawed betting years ago and made the initial rules the only sports betting was essentially illegal sports books. It made sense to have harsher penalties at that time because if an athlete was betting they were also breaking the law. Even betting on professional games could be problematic. An athlete could end up in the hole with a bookie who might demand the debt be paid by fixing or point shaving their athletic contests. Today I don't see why they continue to ban betting on professional sports since it is widely legal to do so and fewer negative externalities. Also with the legalization of gambling it also makes it easier to catch offenders which should mean that the punishment doesn't have to be as harsh to serve its purpose. If you are unlikely to catch offenders because they're doing all this on the black market, harshly punishing offenders can serve as a valuable deterrent. If you can catch ~100% of offenders then it makes sense to have less harsh penalties because the near perfect enforcement is deterrent itself.

Yes, but this was the year he redshirted. 1983-1984 he lost in the second round and DNP. 1984-1985 was the year he lost to Jordan in the final, wrestled at Espior worlds (July in Colorado) and took bronze. 1985-1986 he redshirted won senior nationals (April? in Vegas), won Goodwill Games (July in Moscow), did not wrestle at worlds (October in Budapest). 1986-1987 he won NCAAs, did not win senior nationals (did he wrestle?), presumable won WTT, won Pan Ams (August in Indianapolis), and won world championships (August in France). 1987-1988 he won NCAAs, won senior nationals, won OTT, won Olympics. I suppose worlds being in October 1986 may have interfered with his preparation for his redshirt junior year so he may have sat out the trials. Maybe if they had been earlier in the year like they were in 1987 he would not have sat out. Or perhaps if he had beaten Iseav before the trials he would have prioritized going to the world championships. Either way if he sat out the WTT in 1986 then we still don't know where the 3rd domestic loss occurred.

That's what I found as well. I would assume that would mean 2 domestic losses at the junior level which wouldn't work. Since the HOF record for him had three losses and he definitely had two at the senior level. Maybe he forfeited the 3rd place match?

I really don't know. I read an article that said the loss to Fisher in 1992 was his first domestic loss in 4 years (Lewis in 1988 presumably) and first since 1990 (Reinoso at Cerro Pelado). So I think this loss had to happen before the 1988 loss to Lewis. I see that he won Senior Nationals in 1986 and, as you pointed out, the Goodwill Games. I think those would have happened in maybe an April/May time frame for Senior Nationals and the Goodwill Games were in July. Joe McFarland represented the US at the World Championships in October where he lost to the finals to Isaev. So maybe he lost at the trials in 1986? It would seem odd too me that he skipped the trials. For context this was his redshirt year so he didn't wrestle an NCAA schedule. Another guess would be Senior Nationals in 1987. Smith did not win Senior Nationals in 1987. He won them in 1986 and 1988-1991. I do not know if that was because he sat out in 1987 or because he lost. My final guess is that they included some loss from Junior or Espior in that record. I think he lost domestically at the Junior level. I suspect they did this with his international record (100-5). The international losses I could find for him are below. Could only find 3 at the senior level so I think the other two were at Espior and Juniors. 1992 Olympics 5th round Reinoso (Cuba) 3-1 OT over Smith (USA) 1990 Cerro Pelado Reinoso (Cuba) 4-3 OT over Smith (USA) 1989 World Cup Sarkisyan (USSR) 2-1 over Smith (USA) 1985 World Espior Championships Smith finished 3rd in a weight won by Arsen Fadzayev (USSR) though I don't know who beat Smith. Radko Karmandiev (Bul) was the silver medalist. 1983 Junior World Championships Finals Nikolai Garkin (USSR) over Smith (USSR)

The Olympics happened in 2021. I know they are often called the 2020 Olympics because they were supposed to have happened in 2020. If you want to call them the 2020 Olympics for that reason that's fine, but Snyder was 25 years old when he wrestled in them whether you call them the 2021 Olympics or the 2020 Olympics.

Expectations have changed a lot in the past 10-15 years. Saying 97kg just isn't performing? It's been better than 57kg, 61kg, 65kg, 70kg, 92kg, 125kg. Brooks at 97kg could be the move. The word is that he's moving up top 197lbs and either him or Starocci said a goal was for them be Olympic teammates at 74 and 86kg. 86 and 97kg could be more realistic than 74 and 86kg.

Not sure. I got that info from his hall of fame bio - https://nwhof.org/hall_of_fame/bio/108. I suspect the third loss was some time in 1986 and he didn't make the team. Maybe someone who knows can chime in.

Not that many. You seem like a John Smith fan. Smith's international career spanned 1987-1992 inclusive. His international record in that time was 100-5 and 77-3 in domestic freestyle competition. Between 2011 and 2017 (1 more year than Smith's career) Burroughs was 152-5 overall in freestyle. He lost once in domestic competition - that 2017 WTT match to Dake 6-6 on criteria. He lost 4 times in international events, 4-4 to Marable at 2014 Yasar Doug, 2-9 to Tsargush at 2014 Worlds, 2-3 too Guduev at the 2016 Olympics, and 11-1 to Abdurakhmonov also at the 2016 Olympics.

2017 was not an Olympic year. There was a summer games in 2016 and there was supposed to be a summer games in 2021, but the COVID-19 pandemic pushed back the 2020 OTT and Olympics to 2021. The series with Dake in 2017 was a WTT. Burroughs won the series 2-1 and won worlds in 2017. As someone else pointed out Marsteller won one of three at Final X in 2022 as well.

I am pretty sure Smith dropped one in the 2 out of 3 with John Fisher for the 1992 Olympic spot as well. Possibly not prime Smith by then. His world/Olympic titles were 1987-1992 inclusive.

Smith dropped 1 in the best 2 of 3 to Lewis in 1988. This was the year after Smith won his first title. This is probably pretty analogous to when Snyder dropped 1 in a best 2 out of 3 to Varner at the 2016 Trials. In both cases a younger wrestler coming off their first world title dropped 1 match in a best 2 out of 3 against a US gold medalist from 4 years ago. Though Varner's win over Snyder was on Criteria. Varner and Snyder wrestled more than that series. I think Varner had unretired a year earlier and Snyder swept that series 2-0 and they wrestled at the finals of the US Open once also won by Snyder. Overall Snyder was 5-1 against Varner. Not sure how many times Smith and Lewis met. Burroughs American freestyle losses were 2007 to Teyon Ware at University Nationals, 2013 to Marable in an international tournament, 2017 to Dake in a best 2 of 3 at the WTT, 2019 to Imar in a best 2 of 3 at Final X, 2021 to David Taylor at a the Flo Event at 86kg, 2021 to Dake 0-2 in best 2 of 3 at the OTT, 2022 1x to Marsteller in a best 2 of 3 at Final x, and 2023 2x to Marsteller in a best 2 of 3 at Final X. In total there were 10 freestyle losses to Americans all in domestic tournaments except Marable. The "prime" losses are probably the 2013 loss to Marable, and the 2017 loss to Dake, both of those were on criteria (4-4 and 6-6) which wasn't really a thing when Smith, and Baumgartner were competing.

Boultakaev has a bronze medal from 2013 worlds.

I thought that was what you did to start all this. You are going in circles. So Sadulaev preventing Snyder from winning more golds is a valid point, but Taylor preventing Yazdani from winning more titles is an "if not for" that should not be considered? I can't say I see the distinction. In my mind you said that about Sadulaev to try and make the point that Snyder has the same # of titles, more overall medals, and against better competition than Taylor. I attempted to rebut that by pointing out how great Yazdani has been (4 titles, 9 medals, 3 weights, only 3 losses outside of Taylor, 3 wins over 2x champ Ghasempour, no losses outside of Taylor in nearly 8 years) and that if Taylor had lost to him with the frequency that Snyder has lost to Sadulaev he would be considered in the top 5 or so all-time like Sadulaev is. He is objectively one of the top 10 freestyle wrestlers of the past 25 years. Compare Snyder's career and Yazdani's. They are almost the same. Both started competing on the senior level in 2015 have won 1 OG, 1 OS, 3 WG, 3 WS, 1WB - very similar stuff. Yazdani has one more world silver at a non-Olympic weight (70kg) and Snyder has another world bronze at 97kg. The big difference is that Yazdani is more consistent and loses a lot less. 8 losses in 8 years and 5 of them to Taylor. Snyder has lost a lot more in that time and not just to Sadulaev. Taylor is Yazdani's Sadulaev.

Yes in 1992 he lost a match and still won gold

Supposing Snyder and Taylor retire today, but Sadulaev and Yazdani do not. Sadulaev doesn't win another world level title and Yazdani wins 4 more. 4x champ Snyder. 4x champ Taylor. 7x champ Sadulaev. 8x champ Yazdani, It's a crazy scenario that isn't going to happen, but I would probably view Taylor as the best 86kg of his generation where he overlapped with and dominated one of the greatest wrestlers of all time for a handful of years. Snyder's legacy probably wouldn't match that even with a few more bronze and silver medals.

Yeah they were saying that on FRL the other day. I don't know if that is true. Yazdani and Taylor might just be that good. Yazdani won the 2016 Olympics at 74kg he also has a world silver at 70kg. Ghasempour took out Cox twice en route to winning two titles at 92kg. He only has 3 career senior level losses all to Yazdani at 86kg. Taylor beat 79kg world champ Burroughs at the Flo event and Zahid only went up to 92kg after losing to Taylor where he won a world bronze. One might conclude that either Yazdani/Taylor would be the favorite at any weight from 74kg-92kg.

I'll give it a try. I think it has to do with Yazdani and how Taylor has consistently beaten him. Taylor is 5-1 vs Yazdani. If not for Taylor, Yazdani would likely have 7-8 World/Olympic titles, and his career would look at lot like Sadulaev's who has 7. Yazdani really has been similarly dominant to Sadulaev aside from Taylor. Yazdani has only lost 8 matches, 5 of which were to Taylor. Sadulav has 4 career loses 1 of which was Snyder. Taylor is also 1-0 vs Sharifov who is 2-0 against Snyder. Taylor has 4 world/olympic golds and whilst Snyder has the same number one of those was in 2022 where the top guy was likely not allowed in the tournament (Sadulaev). The Russian/Belarus ban hurts Taylor less than Dake or Snyder because the top guy at his weight (Yazdani) was unaffected. Some may consider Snyder's 4th title slightly less significant than any of Taylor's. I guess Sadulaev's performance at worlds this year, might debunk that line of thinking since he likely wouldn't have won worlds in 2022 wrestling like that. A similar line of thinking could ding Dake's titles. He won his first two at a non-Olympic weight and I think most consider World titles in non-Olympic weights less prestigious/difficult/significant than Olympic weights. And even his titles at 74kg came when the top 2 guys either skipped worlds because it was only a few months after the COVID-delayed Olympics or their countries were banned from competing. I'd probably rank titles at the last 5 world championships like this 2018=2019=2023>2021>2022 with Olympic weights being better than non-Olympic weights. For Taylor's weight they are nearly all the same because the top guy wasn't banned and didn't skip.

Yes Lee was ranked 7th at world. If Russia qualifies either as a 3rd or true 5th place finisher at Worlds and the 6th place finisher is otherwise qualified, then Lee would get the spot vacated by the Russian. However if Mamedov finishes 6th and Russia qualifies through the European/World qualifier then the spot would go to the highest ranked finisher at the Euro/world qualifier that isn't otherwise qualified.

Actually there is a prescribed plan for this though the plan has this happening in June 2024, but maybe the IOC hasn't figured out the Russian/Belarussian situation by then. https://stillmed.olympics.com/media/Documents/Olympic-Games/Paris-2024/Paris2024-QS-Wrestling.pdf

If the format is like that last time there is no true second place and they don't wrestle the final. So only one is needed to mess things up. I don't think they seed the brackets either and even if they do at least RBY will have 0 rankings points so I'm sure he wouldn't be seeded.