Bo Bachelor round 2

[Dogbone]

3 minutes ago, jackwebster said:

Fair enough, except he bailed out after the helicopter, far-ankle business. And not that it matters but both guys were missing some knee infrastructure.

I thought the discussion was on scrambling ability not trying to defend a shot. Once it was going to require Lee to scramble to avoid the TD, he bailed.  

My point about the ACL was he wasn't trying to scramble because of his knee injuries, not an excuse for him losing the position so not sure why Cardlinale's knee is relevant. 

[jackwebster]

6 minutes ago, Dogbone said:

I thought the discussion was on scrambling ability not trying to defend a shot. Once it was going to require Lee to scramble to avoid the TD, he bailed.  

My point about the ACL was he wasn't trying to scramble because of his knee injuries, not an excuse for him losing the position so not sure why Cardlinale's knee is relevant. 

I give. 

[VakAttack]

23 minutes ago, jackwebster said:

Here's another (and a bigger smile)

@~ 1:00 and at the end

 

This isn't a scramble.

[Dogbone]

5 minutes ago, BAC said:

If I'm following everything correctly, it seems like this really just reduces to the Bassett family wanting Bo's (and eventually Melvin's) trips to Iowa City paid for as they train pre-college. It seems likely that they want this because they believe Jax's trips are paid for.

To me, this raises more questions than it answers.  On its face, this would be a very obvious recruiting violation.  NCAA rules don't allow schools to pay for the travel of recruits back and forth to campus pre-enrollment.  Perhaps that changes under the House settlement -- I don't know -- but it hasn't yet.

The question for me is:  how is it that Jax is able to have his trips to/from Oklahoma paid for?  Is it really as widespread as the Bassetts are saying?  Is there some sort of NIL exemption for it?  Or are they justifying it by farming the money through RTC, e.g. saying the RTCs are merely "paying the travel costs to bring in practice partners for existing members"?

My best guess is the RTCs are used as the vehicle to bypass the NCAA rule.  What I can't say, though, is whether this a shady and arguably unethical circumvention of a rule, or if it's on solid legal ground and Iowa is either too cash-strapped do this or too behind-the-times to prioritize this funding allocation.

I just can't quite bring myself to mock Iowa for screwing this up without having a better sense of how shady this practice is of ferrying recruits to/from the university. 

My guess is we'll either see Iowa change their practice to catch up with the times, or start blowing the whistle on programs that do pony up for travel costs.  Objectively speaking, it's bad for the sport to have two conflicting legal interpretations on whether this is permissible, as it creates an uneven playing field in recruiting.  

I think you have it summarized correctly. 

The only thing I would add as possibilities your question is :

1) it is a grey area in the rule and Ok St compliance is willing to take the risk that is permitted and Iowa's compliance either doesn't think it's permissible or doesn't want to risk a violation on a 50/50 call.  OR

2) Is Jax situation different under the rules than Bo's?  Jax was going to Stillwater to train under the RTC for an event he will be competing in as opposed to Bo who may just want to go train.   Also, sounds like Melvin and Keegan also wanted to go and maybe as prospective athletes that could be different that OSU paying for Jax and (potentially) his family?   I don't know the rules but the nuances could be important to how each compliance department is looking at it.  

[jackwebster]

5 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

This isn't a scramble.

At 1 min isn't a scramble?

[1032004]

22 minutes ago, Coastal said:

Did Diakomahalis get pinned multiple times from scrambles?   Did he lose a scramble and lose his chance to be a 4 time NCAA champ?

He lost a scramble that lost a chance to make the world team

[headshuck]

Pretty elaborate strategy to expose OkState.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

8 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Wouldn’t this flight stuff (or whatever else they were allegedly asking for) have been discussed prior to signing the original deal?

That was before Jax was getting flown into Stillwater.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

7 hours ago, Coastal said:

I could see compliance telling them that recruits and potential recruits can't train with Iowa without knowing that all three brothers are RTC eligible.

Not at Iowa they're not.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

7 hours ago, Mr. PeanutButter said:

The family (dad?) wanted to tell Tom how to train/run the program but also wanted paid flights to get their kids to the RTC to train whenever they wanted? 

Giving so much special treatment to one family is a quick way to ruin a team's culture so I don't blame Tom for taking a stand. However, I can easily imagine him being less than tactful with how he communicated all this to the family and that has been a persistent problem

I remember some wrestling people giving the Brands crap for "letting Larry Lee run the progra,."  The same cats are fine with Bill Bassett running the Hawks though. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

4 hours ago, Coastal said:

The Brands' philosophy of not practicing until you can get a move right but practicing so much you can't get it wrong is great for beating inferior opponents but is so easy for equal opponents to exploit.  RBY hides an arm and Desanto looks like he's never wrestled before.  Lee never developed a go to takedown or scrambling because he'd just tilt everyone into oblivion.  Marinelli developed his upper body series but got beaten like a dog whenever someone refused to engage at NCAAs.   Ayala's entire offense seems to consist of a throwby.

The old tough guy approach of we don't need to adapt, others need to adapt to us just lead to wrestlers getting beaten when if counts after beating the same opponent earlier in the year. 

You are correct that Bassett doesn't need to reinforce what he does well.  He needs to focus on some more leg attacks as his pace is a weapon but as Stanich showed, he's not super athletic and has trouble getting through head/hands

Lee is one of the best scramblers in the NCAA in recent years.  Ben Askren himself said so.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

4 hours ago, VakAttack said:

 

Feeling less and less annoyed.

An old sophomore who wrestles 99 lbs and took fourth in the state tournament is feeling mighty empowered.

[1032004]

8 minutes ago, Coastal said:

I thought this was the college forum...

then why did you bring up the Olympics and freestyle exhibition matches?

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

3 hours ago, Coastal said:

Matt Ramos also had him on his list of best scramblers.

Lee's scrambling technique was to not get in scrambles.  His insane grip strength made traditional scrambling and funk a losing proposition for most so they either backed out of the scramble or bailed.   Watch every match of his and count how many opponents tried ankle passes and the like.

Matt Ramos lol

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

3 hours ago, Dogbone said:

It does say something when your freshman younger brother needs to weigh in on your de-commitment and uses phrases like "all we wanted.."     

Yep.

"We"

[BAC]

33 minutes ago, Dogbone said:

1) it is a grey area in the rule and Ok St compliance is willing to take the risk that is permitted and Iowa's compliance either doesn't think it's permissible or doesn't want to risk a violation on a 50/50 call.  

Yes, that's the possibility I was raising.  I don't think there's any chance a program as big and internally-regulated as OSU is going to be engaged in obviously illegal practices.  The question is, what's the workaround, and how defensible is it?  More to the point, why isn't Iowa doing it? 

If I were in the Brands' position, I'd be telling my AD, "Hey, my competition is doing this, either get approval for this from the GC or file a complaint against the other schools for recruiting violations, because this is not a level playing field." 

33 minutes ago, Dogbone said:

2) Is Jax situation different under the rules than Bo's?  Jax was going to Stillwater to train under the RTC for an event he will be competing in as opposed to Bo who may just want to go train.   Also, sounds like Melvin and Keegan also wanted to go and maybe as prospective athletes that could be different that OSU paying for Jax and (potentially) his family?   I don't know the rules but the nuances could be important to how each compliance department is looking at it.  

That's a really good question.  It would be a different question entirely if Iowa was paying for Bo's transport, but not Mel/Keegan's. I don't want to speculate too much since there's no credible reports about that being the issue.

But if it is, then I struggle to defend Iowa here. Yes, on one hand, there's a certain logic to extending the RTC logic to non-commits, since the whole argument is that it isn't about recruiting at all.  But on the other hand, doing so just exposes the lie underneath the whole RTC argument, showing that it's an exception that swallows the rule.  Once you allow Jax to fly to OK to "help Daton train," then you can build an entire recruiting system around "helping your RTC guys train" by flying in would-be recruits. 

Might as well make it first class and throw in some hookers and blow on the flight while you're at it, right?

Point being:  I can't see any good reason why OSU should be allowed to pay for Jax's flights, if that's what's happening.  Would be really curious to know how widespread that practice is, and what legal rationale they're using.  

Edited June 23, 2025 by BAC

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

55 minutes ago, jackwebster said:

Fair enough, except he bailed out after the helicopter, far-ankle business. And not that it matters but both guys were missing some knee infrastructure.

I think Cardinale's knee was injured the next year.

[VakAttack]

33 minutes ago, jackwebster said:

At 1 min isn't a scramble?

You mean the end of the match?  No. He is straight defending a single in the splits, and he put his head next to his knee.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

7 minutes ago, BAC said:

Yes, that's the possibility I was raising.  I don't think there's any chance a program as big and internally-regulated as OSU is going to be engaged in obviously illegal practices.  The question is, what's the workaround, and how defensible is it?  More to the point, why isn't Iowa doing it? 

If I were in the Brands' position, I'd be telling my AD, "Hey, my competition is doing this, either get approval for this from the GC or file a complaint against the other schools for recruiting violations, because this is not a level playing field." 

That's a really good question.  It would be a different question entirely if Iowa was paying for Bo's transport, but not Mel/Keegan's. On one hand, there's a certain logic to extending the RTC logic to non-commits, since the whole argument is that it isn't about recruiting at all.  On the other hand, doing so just exposes the lie underneath the whole RTC argument, showing that it's an exception that swallows the rule.  Once you allow Jax to fly to OK to "help Daton train," then you can build an entire recruiting system around "helping your RTC guys train" by flying in would-be recruits.  Might as well make it first class and throw in some hookers and blow on the flight while you're at it.

Point being:  I can't see any good reason why OSU should be allowed to pay for Jax's flights, if that's what's happening.  Would be really curious to know how widespread that practice is, and what legal rationale they're using.  

It doesn't mean anyone is actually "cheating."  OSU's compliance dept might not think its a big deal, but if Iowa's does think its big, Brands can't do it.

Different departments can have vastly different interpretations.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

Does anyone have the post Corby made explaining the situation.  Hawk forum, prob.

[HokieDave87]

8 minutes ago, BAC said:

Yes, that's the possibility I was raising.  I don't think there's any chance a program as big and internally-regulated as OSU is going to be engaged in obviously illegal practices.  The question is, what's the workaround, and how defensible is it?  More to the point, why isn't Iowa doing it? 

If I were in the Brands' position, I'd be telling my AD, "Hey, my competition is doing this, either get approval for this from the GC or file a complaint against the other schools for recruiting violations, because this is not a level playing field." 

That's a really good question.  It would be a different question entirely if Iowa was paying for Bo's transport, but not Mel/Keegan's. I don't want to speculate too much since there's no credible reports about that being the issue.

But if it is, then I struggle to defend Iowa here. Yes, on one hand, there's a certain logic to extending the RTC logic to non-commits, since the whole argument is that it isn't about recruiting at all.  But on the other hand, doing so just exposes the lie underneath the whole RTC argument, showing that it's an exception that swallows the rule.  Once you allow Jax to fly to OK to "help Daton train," then you can build an entire recruiting system around "helping your RTC guys train" by flying in would-be recruits. 

Might as well make it first class and throw in some hookers and blow on the flight while you're at it, right?

Point being:  I can't see any good reason why OSU should be allowed to pay for Jax's flights, if that's what's happening.  Would be really curious to know how widespread that practice is, and what legal rationale they're using.  

I think it's very common for guys not within the 250 mile radius to train on their own dime at their future school. I don't know about the Jax Forrest situation where they're paying to bring him in. I guess he is on a world team so you could be bringing in a training partner but I think Iowa would be all over that if they could/wanted to be.

It also seems like a very extreme ask to bring in Keegan Bassett to help his RTC guys train. If I had to guess I'm going to guess Bill Bassett is at fault here and maybe Brands could've handled it better but overall had the right idea.

[Mr. PeanutButter]

22 minutes ago, Coastal said:

I thought this was the college forum...

Besides, he didn't lose a scramble, Duke hit a move that was scouted and practiced.

Since you so conveniently moved the goal posts I will heretofore contend that anytime Lee scores, it's a scramble. Anytime he gets scored on, his opponent "hit a move"

[MNRodent]

38 minutes ago, headshuck said:

Pretty elaborate strategy to expose OkState.

Yeah, the Forrest family is like thanks a lot Bassetts, now we gotta start paying for travel.

[jackwebster]

16 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

You mean the end of the match?  No. He is straight defending a single in the splits, and he put his head next to his knee.

No at the beginning, on the edge near tge Iowa bench .. After Lee had picc' s leg up in the air.

[BAC]

12 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

It doesn't mean anyone is actually "cheating."  OSU's compliance dept might not think its a big deal, but if Iowa's does think its big, Brands can't do it.

Different departments can have vastly different interpretations.

That's possible, but where it's an issue as consequential to recruiting as this, it's inconceivable that any competent coach would just drop it right there.